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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Couple things to rember or note.

Quote:
I still wish he hadn't said that thing about America going down in the 80s

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the [b] day [/b] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Note Adam died but in a way that wasn't observable to the eyes. Maybe Ravenhill was right? I think it is RAHMAN who has done extension research on American economy and the overthrow of America. It might be useful to pm' him and ask for the threads he posted on that.


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D.Miller

 2007/1/6 21:49Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Perspective on Prophets

Pretty meaty.

Thank you. :-)


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/1/6 21:59Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: A Biblical opinion

Quote:
In my opinion of course:

One dimension of biblical, Spirit inspired prophecy: Proclaiming and explaining the mind and heart of God:

The predictive element of prophecy has been over-emphasized. We comment more on the state of affairs of a nation, or the church rather than emphasizing how God feels:

His pleasure or displeasure concerning the state of His people or plight of those who remain outside of His salvation:

His gracious call to restoration and renewal in the light of His warnings and confrontation to provoke repentance.



Welcome Pastor! If I may return the greetings.
:-)

Very well said. If I recall correctly David Wilkerson would state that he saw himself more of a 'watchman' than a 'prophet'. We have had quite a few discussions on what constitutes a prophet in our day and generally it seems the lines have become quite blurred in many minds.

A prime example would be someone like A.W. Tozer. A prophet in our day (In my opinion) defined by your first definition and yet completely bereft of any manner of predicting or forth telling of coming 'event's', at least the sort that are of a "Thus sayeth the Lord" or "The Lord is telling me ..." style.

He most certainly defined exactly where we are today and saw it coming.


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Mike Balog

 2007/1/6 23:53Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Loveroftruth
welcome to S.I! i thank God for your post because it confirms what our Lord had been showing me about prophethood (an office to which i believe i'm called) which i'd been trying to share of late. indeed most people immediately assume that a prophet is one who predicts the future but that is like you said a small part of it. i look at the prophets in the O.T. and we can take for example Samuel. Samuel didn't say much about the future, he dealt with the present mainly. Elijah and Elisha also dealt more with the present than the future. if you read the books of the prophets you find out that much of what is written is the very heart of God being poured out through the prophet to Israel concerning her behaviour. SOmetimes the prophet is told what God will do in response to Israel's behaviour or even the behaviour of the nations around her, like Isaiah, Jeremiah etc. Another thing about the prophets is that they were aware of what was going on around them. Jeremiah was at the king's court so he had knowledge of international affairs for example. the amazing thing is that they saw these things in the context of what God was doing and what He was planning to do to Israel. we can take daniel also for example. He lived long enough to see the medes and the persians take over babylon. He knew well enough (being one of high rank in babylonia) what trouble was brewing with the growing power of the medes and persians. He saw it in the context of what God was doing as he started to see the vision he was shown come to pass.


Quote:
His gracious call to restoration and renewal in the light of His warnings and confrontation to provoke repentance.



true, although the message of restoration may not come immediately after the warning of judgment/call to repentance. Ezekiel spent about 7 yrs, the first 7 years of his ministry preaching nothing but judgment with only one mention of restoration, a brief one i might add before God turned him loose with the message of restoration and reconciliation. this is subject to the will of God Himself who picks and chooses what message to send when and through whom.

i was blessed by your post :-D


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Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 1:18Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Crsschk

Quote:
Very well said. If I recall correctly David Wilkerson would state that he saw himself more of a 'watchman' than a 'prophet'. We have had quite a few discussions on what constitutes a prophet in our day and generally it seems the lines have become quite blurred in many minds.



i take it you think this post helps clear things up a bit? ;-) :-P

Quote:
A prime example would be someone like A.W. Tozer. A prophet in our day (In my opinion) defined by your first definition and yet completely bereft of any manner of predicting or forth telling of coming 'event's', at least the sort that are of a "Thus sayeth the Lord" or "The Lord is telling me ..." style.



kinda like samuel? i guess once again this underscores that the predictive aspect of being a prophet is what is more commonly known about, in contrast to the bigger picture which really is the pouring out of the heart of God and how He feels about His people and their circumstances.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 1:25Profile
loveroftruth
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Joined: 2006/10/25
Posts: 25


 Re:

IRONMAN and Crsschk:
Thanks for the good words and welcome!

IRONMAN: glad I confirmed and stimulated the further pursuit of God Himself as you contunue in that calling!

The blessing will be the privilege of helping others draw near to God and overcome any hurdles of unbelief or discouragement that may have stood in the way.

Speaking of "Overcoming".

You might find more fuel for the fire in the Letters to the Churches in Rev. 2-3.

As Revelation is explicitly identified as a prophecy Rev.1:3

I am blessed to see Jesus faithfully in the midst of the Church He Himself is still building.
In one sense He speaks as the truest prophet to the leaders, the church as a whole and any individual who will hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches as the One communicating to us and empowering us to carry out the interests of Christ in cooperation with Him.

Some have looked at these Churches through the "predictive" lense element of prophecy and seen the various church ages throughout history.

While cool and novel and edifying to some degree, I myself do not find warrant for that in the Scripture itself.

But here is what I do see. These are words of prophecy as Jesus speaks to His Church:

As He seeks to confirm the good,strenghten some to continue in spite of opposition, distraction and persecution:

and take strong personal issue(out of love) for the wrong and yet again provide for means of restoral, renewal and revival as He calls for repentance.

He also warns of judgment and intensive discipline that He will undertake if His Words are eventually not heeded.


The predictive element of prophecy I believe is present with the events that unfold in Rev. 4.

The beauty is that Christ holds out promises in each letter for the one who "overcomes". I believe these promises are tied to the glory that will be revealed in the future events that unfold later.

The blessing is that it allows God's people to sense His active presence in a very real and tangible, yet Biblical and faith filled way.

Keeping it simple here, because I think that anyone can be encouraged by this means of interpretation no matter their view of eschatology/end times even though I hold to a Pre-Mil/Pre-Trib perspective of living out my faith.

Blessings to you,

 2007/1/7 1:52Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Very well said. If I recall correctly David Wilkerson would state that he saw himself more of a 'watchman' than a 'prophet'. We have had quite a few discussions on what constitutes a prophet in our day and generally it seems the lines have become quite blurred in many minds.



When Wilkerson was in Australia, he preached a sermon based on John the Baptist's words, "Are you the one to one, or should we expect another?" In it, he mentioned how he has often gone to God, weeping saying, "Should I retract what I have said?" His thoughts were on all those who could have benefited from property booms, when he had exhorted everyone to "get out of debt", based on what he believed that God was saying.

True, Wilkerson refers to himself as a watchman, but he always adds, "...one of many." The other thing that is very important to recognise is that a prophet would always have to bear the agonising burden of the possibility of "getting it wrong", and yet be required to obey the Lord's prompting, as an act of faith. After all, "that which is not of faith is sin".

Ravenhill was wise to comment on his belief that America would be destroyed. Bear in mind that his catch cry was often, "If God doesn't judge America, then he will have to apologise to Sodom and Gomorrah." He'd also say things like, "What makes you think that you are exempt while nations like Russia and China suffer?"

A lot of what is being considered to be "prognosticating" was more of reactionary statements to widespread belief in a "pretrib rapture", which Ravenhill heavily objected against.

As a side, often people object to people "claiming to be prophets", and rightly so. Pontifical characters like Robertson, are dangerous in one sense, and ridiculous in another (this is why they are often "ridiculed". Ravenhill never referred to himself as a prophet. Tozer did (in the foreword to "Why Revival Tarries"). And remember, back in those days, "prophet" was used to describe the one who brought the "hard word".

However, there is another kind of "prophet". This is the one who reads prophetic Scripture, and sees the "cause and effect" statements, realising that the "cause" is happening now, and so God could not, in good conscience, hold back the "effect" indefinitely. Upon seeing this, they are "compelled to warn" others of what they see.

Brothers like Art Katz, Wilkerson, Reidhead, and Ravenhill, for example, would come under this category. I have heard Art (of these the only one that allows himself to be called a prophet) often say of how he would give a statement, and how one would come accusing him of "bringing shame to the character of God", by his statements, to which he says, "The heck of it all is that they may be right. But the prophetic tension is that to be silent would be a greater offence, and the risk of bringing shame to God's name and incalculable damage to the church will not be fully know until the Day of Judgement."

We try to distill things down into pretty principles that keep us safe. Funny, I believe that is what Eve tried in the garden, by adding the words "..neither shall you touch it.." to God's command to not eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It didn't work for her, and yet somehow we believe that it will for us, and meanwhile massive sects and heresies spring from these "safety blanket additions".

God help us, if we cannot come to the simplicity of Christ and obey what has been said, and what [b]is[/b] being said without question. Don't forget, it was only Moses who talked with God "face to face". Every other would have had reason to question that God was speaking to them, all the while aware that failure in even one point meant death...and yet they obeyed, and didn't [b]play it safe[/b]. Thank God they did.


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/1/7 6:40Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Prophecy for today

Difficult to place this being two simultaneous posts of the same matter up ...

I am convinced that our great error in this day and if there is anything at all prophetic necessary it is this;

[i]Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts[/i]:
Psa 51:6


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Mike Balog

 2007/1/7 9:35Profile









 Re:

My humble opinion (I'm not a scholar, a theologer, a preacher etc), is that in the Bible, the Old Testament prophets would always says things like, 'Thus sayeth the Lord,' or 'The Lord has said.' Prophets never point people to themselves but to [b]God[/b].

When this man says 'I have a pretty good track record...sometimes I miss,' it makes me feel uneasy. A true prophet or one that has a genuine, God-given prophecy would hardly even mention themselves, I mean after all, prophets are here to point people to God aren't they?

 2007/1/7 9:45
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Loveroftruth
Good word!

Quote:
IRONMAN: glad I confirmed and stimulated the further pursuit of God Himself as you contunue in that calling!



AMEN.

Quote:
The blessing will be the privilege of helping others draw near to God and overcome any hurdles of unbelief or discouragement that may have stood in the way.



yes indeed, this is a big thing, it's not about us but about our Lord and His glory.

Quote:
I am blessed to see Jesus faithfully in the midst of the Church He Himself is still building.In one sense He speaks as the truest prophet to the leaders, the church as a whole and any individual who will hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches as the One communicating to us and empowering us to carry out the interests of Christ in cooperation with Him.



indeed Christ is the Chief Prophet and Apostle and High Priest of Faith. indeed He speaks to those who have ears and hear what the Spirit is saying...will we listen or be like Israel in times past and harden our hearts?


Quote:
Some have looked at these Churches through the "predictive" lense element of prophecy and seen the various church ages throughout history.

While cool and novel and edifying to some degree, I myself do not find warrant for that in the Scripture itself.



it seems to me these Churches existed then and throughout the ages till now in that the prevailing Spirit in the Churches can be seen in believers in different places. There are those like laodicea with much wealth but yet lukewarm, those like Ephesus who have toiled much and toil still, but have left their first love, then those like Smyrna and Philadelphia which suffer. ultimately the bottom line is we have to hear what the Spirit is saying to us. Are there things we need to repent of? have we left our first love etc. which you summed up perfectly here.

Quote:
As He seeks to confirm the good,strenghten some to continue in spite of opposition, distraction and persecution:
and take strong personal issue(out of love) for the wrong and yet again provide for means of restoral, renewal and revival as He calls for repentance.

He also warns of judgment and intensive discipline that He will undertake if His Words are eventually not heeded.



This is the very heart of God being poured out through JOhn concerning His Church and this is prophecy in it's truest sense i believe.

Quote:
The beauty is that Christ holds out promises in each letter for the one who "overcomes". I believe these promises are tied to the glory that will be revealed in the future events that unfold later.



AMEN!

Quote:
Keeping it simple here, because I think that anyone can be encouraged by this means of interpretation no matter their view of eschatology/end times even though I hold to a Pre-Mil/Pre-Trib perspective of living out my faith.



and that's the bottom line. i don't ascribe to pre-trib rapture, i'm a pan-tribber, it'll all pan out. 8-) i feel that as per the letters to the Churches, there is a time in which we the Church must be purged if we are to be rapture ready so to me GOd may do this pre-trib, through the first half of the trib, or through the whole trib. the bottom line to me is God's grace is sufficient whether one is pre,mid or post trib.

like the word said and you repeated, let he that has ears hear what the Spirit is saying...


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Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 13:09Profile





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