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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It also should be noted that 1 John 3:9 teaches that “whosoever is born of God cannot commit sin”. “Cannot” is a reflection of their will, not their ability. When Joseph was tempted with adultery and he cried out, “how can I do this great wickedness and sin against God” (Genesis 39:9) this was not a reflection upon his ability but upon his will. His ability was capable of committing adultery, but his will was not capable of committing adultery. Likewise, sinners are capable in their ability of obeying, but not willing in their heart. And saints are capable in their ability to disobey, but are not willing in their heart.



Darby's translation captures the meaning of the passage better than the ambiguity of the KJV.
[color=0000ff]“Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God.” (1John 3:9 DRBY)[/color]

In Joseph's case Young's gets the sense better...
[color=0000ff]“none is greater in this house than I, and he hath not withheld from me anything, except thee, because thou [art] his wife; and how shall I do this great evil? — then have I sinned against God.’” (Gen 39:9 YNG)[/color]
Joseph was appalled at the idea of sinning against God. This verse tells us nothing about his ability or lack of it.

I think you will find on examination that the scriptures do not use the word 'will' in the sense in which Finney and yourself have chosen to use it. The scripture uses 'the will' in the sense of the decree or choice. It is simply an expression of man's ability to choose and then to carry out his choice.

There are many biblical words which need to be incorporated into a full expression of your theme. They include words like spirit, heart, soul, conscience, lust, desire, believe, choose and more. 'The Will' is not among the ways that the scripture express these things.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/12/29 16:12Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
There are many biblical words which need to be incorporated into a full expression of your theme. They include words like spirit, heart, soul, conscience, lust, desire, believe, choose and more. 'The Will' is not among the ways that the scripture express these things.



Amen. I think it is dangerous to be talking Bible theology and redefine Bible words into different words. Wouldn't that end up being your own theology rather than the theology of the Bible?


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Josh Parsley

 2006/12/29 16:27Profile









 Re:

How is one guilty of adultery "in their heart"?

Isn't it when they will adultery?

If the heart of man is not the will of man, what is it?

 2006/12/29 16:32
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
How is one guilty of adultery "in their heart"?

Isn't it when they will adultery?

If the heart of man is not the will of man, what is it?


[color=0000ff]“but I — I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt 5:28 YNG)[/color]
This is 'looking with intent', hence the Greek phrase [color=0000ff]pros to epithumEsai[/color]. 'pros' with the accusative, as here, gives the sense of purpose and might be translated 'in order to'. While 'epithumeO' is the word for strong desire.

The phrase 'one who is looking' also implies the characteristic of this 'one'. This is not a glance but a pattern.

So, in this passage, we have reference to 'desire/lust' and 'patterns of behaviour' but no reference to this thing that Finney (and most others) calls 'the will'.

You are also using the word 'will' as a verb. I have the same objections as to its use as a noun.

Many, if not most, Bible students regard 'the will' as a faculty of the heart. Are you saying that 'the will' and 'the heart' are simply synonyms?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/12/30 4:38Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: What is this 'thing'?

I have got admit that even to this day this whole matter I find quite challenging indeed. It is redundant to express it again, but Ron's very earlier comment of "[i]There is just [u]you[/u][/i]" taken from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9249&forum=34#70374]Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification[/url] (if you scroll down to the 4 part series mentioned there) one of these messages, I forget which one now ... Has stayed all these years and ... I must also admit, this 'faculty' in it's isolation, well I cannot find it, hence the difficulty, hence the appreciation, hence the admittance that we are really quite screwed up in the core of ourselves or 'depraved' but that is another subject altogether I suppose.

Either way, a great appreciation for the reminder to go back and dig up some 'old' things that are entrenched here and bring them back up for everyones consideration and encouragement. This is cutting across many a thread up at the moment.

... [i]Into the bowels of SermonIndex[/i]


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Mike Balog

 2006/12/30 10:16Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Quote:
Ron's: “but I — I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt 5:28 YNG)
This is 'looking with intent', hence the Greek phrase pros to epithumEsai. 'pros' with the accusative, as here, gives the sense of purpose and might be translated 'in order to'. While 'epithumeO' is the word for strong desire.

The phrase 'one who is looking' also implies the characteristic of this 'one'. This is not a glance but a pattern.



This is interesting and brings to mind something I have been wondering now for some time. Does it not seem that in being zealous to condemn a sinner as a sinner by charging 'looking with lust' as the same as adultery a pattern has developed that makes all sorts of 'sins of the heart' (as it were) an ongoing issue on the conscience of many simply because an excessively strict construction was placed on like passages in order to condemn a sinner? This position may work well for condemning a person as a sinner, but is it necessary? To be consistent the same construction we put on the passage for the sinner is the one that we must also apply to ourselves post regeneration. Perhaps this behavior in soul winning is having an adverse effect on folk once they are saved not knowing the true sense of the original text(s) in question?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/1/2 9:42Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
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 Re:

Quote:
- THE CAUSATION VIEW
One view is that the relation between man's nature and man's will is that of causation or determination. That is, if man's nature is biased towards sin, man's will would be caused or forced to choose sin. Man's will is not merely influenced by his nature, according to this view, but man's will is caused and determined by his nature.
In this view, the will is but the servant or slave of the nature, not being free or independent.



You do an admirable job of describing the Causation view but you do not come to the proper conclusions.
You wrote
Quote:
If this were true:
A. A sinful nature would force a man's will to choose sin, seeing that the will is the slave of the nature, being incapable of willing anything other then the demands of the nature.


What you must be aware of is that all that an unbeliever does or does not do is Sin in God’s eyes. Romans 14:23 makes this clear when it says, ‘For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.’ An unbeliever does not have Faith therefore all that they do is sinful, even wonderful charity work. The unbeliever is incapable of choosing not to sin.

Quote:
If this were true:
B. This would imply that if a being had a good nature, or a nature biased towards the good, he would be incapable of willing or doing that which is sinful. His will would be determined by his nature, thus his good nature would render him impossible of sinning.
Very simply, if a sinful nature means the will is incapable of doing good, a good nature means the will is incapable of doing evil.



Here is where you make a presumption that is not biblically based. You are logically inferring that if a bad nature keeps a person from doing good, then a good nature keeps a person from doing bad.

It is true that a person with a sinful nature can do good things. It is true that a person with the Spirit of God can do bad things. The important difference is God’s attitude towards them. Romans 8:8 says that ‘Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.’ They cannot please God because they are hostile to him. In God’s eyes they are incapable of doing good because even their good is not good because it is not done in faith. The person with the Spirit of God can do bad things, but he is not hostile to God because God has forgiven his sins. This person is set free. “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:36).

We must not get caught up in worldly concept of good and bad. We must view sin in this instance from God's perspective which is:
- All an unbeliever does is sinful.
* Note - The unbeliever stands under God's condemnation at all times.

- All a believer does is forgiven
* Note - God is not pleased with a believer who sins and does correct the believer as a Father corrects his son. This is done in love and never in condemnation.

A believer can do bad and a non-believer can do good from a worldly perspective but from God's perspective, a believer is never condemned and a nonbeliever is always condemned.

 2007/1/2 14:22Profile









 Re:

It's true that anything that is not faith is sin, but what is unbelief?

Unbelief is rejecting the truth of God. Faith is confidence or trust in the truth of God.

The arguement that:

1. Unbelief is sin
2. Unbelievers are in sin.
3. Therefore, an unbeliever cannot obey God

Requires a huge step! To go from #2 to #3 is not following a logical path.

It's true that unbelief (rejecting God's truth) is sin. It's true that an unbeliever is in sin, because they reject God's truth. But this does not imply nor logically conclude that an unbeliever cannot choose to accept God's truth, and therefore become a believer.

While an unbeliever is an unbeliever, they are sin in. An unbeliever cannot please God, while they are an unbeliever.

But if they put their faith (their trust) in the truth of God, then they do please God.

Quote:
A believer can do bad and a non-believer can do good from a worldly perspective



In God's perspective, a person is either entirely depraved or entirely holy.

What is holiness other then conformity to God's law? And what actually fullfills the law except love? If a person loves God supremely and his neighbor equally (which is obedience to God's law) the only way they could sin is if they do not love God supremely and their neighbor equally (which is disobedience to God's law).

These cannot both exist at the same time. If a person obeys the law, they cannot be disobeying it at the same time. They may obey it one minute and the next break it, but they cannot obey and break it at the same exact time. Only love to God and neighbor is obedience to the law, anything else is sin.

If a person loves God and neighbor, they are entirely holy. If a person does not love God and neighbor, they are entirely depraved.

Holiness does not exist in outward actions. The Pharisees appeared righteous outwardly, but inwardly were full of iniquity.

True holiness is of the heart.

A holy heart is a heart that loves God and neighbor. Such a heart is a perfect heart. A sinful heart is a heart that loves self above God and neighbor. Such a heart is entirely depraved, seeing that it does not obey God's law at all.


 2007/1/2 17:55
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
A holy heart is a heart that loves God and neighbor. Such a heart is a perfect heart. A sinful heart is a heart that loves self above God and neighbor. Such a heart is entirely depraved, seeing that it does not obey God's law at all.


So, is it possible for a holy heart to sin? Does not sinning make the heart holy or does a holy heart not continue in sin?

If any man sin... how would your view finish that sentence? Does a single transgression cause the 'heart' to degenerate to its unholy state? Isn't this getting close to the position referred to my Robert when he described the Finney implication that your last 'action' determines whether or not you are sinner or saint, and hence hell or heaven?

You are working with the word 'sinful' as though man were some kind of inanimate vessel that can be 'filled' with either sin or holiness. In fact, I am not sure that the Bible uses the word 'sinful' at all in the way that you are using it. Sin-full may be a dramatic way of expressing something but the word is just the adjective that derives from the word 'sin'. People are 'sin-people' rather than 'sin-full people'. That is to say they are people who are characterized by their sinning; it has nothing to do with capacity or percentages.

And... when you are able, I would like to hear your clarification as to whether or not you are saying that 'the will' and 'the heart' are simply synonyms.

I am persisting in these questions, not because I am against 'holiness teaching' but because I am a passionate believer and preacher of New Covenant Holiness and fear that Finney's view makes the whole thing unworkable and, literally, incredible.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/1/2 18:13Profile









 Re:

By "depravity" I do not mean inability. But I mean crooked.

A person is capable of sinning. A person is capable of not sinning.

Those who choose to "love God and keep His commandments" are entirely holy, because they love God and love neighbor. Such a state excludes the possibility of sin, while the person is in such a state of love.

But if a person chooses to no longer "love God and keep His commandments" and no longer love God and neighbor, but they love self supremely and God and neighbor secondly, then they are no longer entirely holy but are entirely depraved, that is, entirely crooked in their will, in their heart.

Such a state of the heart, a state of the will, excludes the possibility of holiness, so long as the will (the heart) is intent on sin.

Sin and holiness cannot co-exist within the same heart, within the same will. A person can be holy one moment and sinful the next moment, but cannot be both holy and sinful at the same moment.

Understanding that depravity is not inability helps to clearly understand that a sinner can choose to obey, just as a Christian can choose to disobey.

The view that a Christian can sin and a non-Christian can stop sinning is only consistent with the view that:

1. The relation of the nature and the will is that of influence and not causation

2. Moral depravity and physical depravity are distinctly different, and a sinner is morally regenerated when converted.

3. Depravity does not consist in or imply inability, but it simply means crooked or perverse.

Your physical constitution stays the same when you are converted. A cigarette smoking may still have physical cravings. But the moral constitution, the will, is different.

The new birth or regeneration is a radical change within the will of man, that is, within the heart of man. It's a radical transformation of a man's will, a man's heart. So that his desires, his intentions, and ultimately his conduct is entirely and radically different then it previously was.

 2007/1/2 19:48





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