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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Giancarlo wrote:

Quote:
G5046
???????
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Pretty eye opening huh?



I see these uses of the word "perfect" by Paul to connote the mature believer. A believer that is of full age. You see Scripture teaches that when one is born again one is not of full age but is a babe. Paul is always exhorting his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to grow in maturity. This aspect of Paul's teaching can also be cross verified with the teachings of John.

1 John 2

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake. 13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Have you ever considered this precept found in Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/29 0:29Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Just a general comment...

I have noticed that many seek to base their beliefs on the testimonies of men like Wesley and all the others mentioned in this thread. These are men who have had a personal relationship with our Lord. Yet their experience, is not our experience.

But after all the words and thoughts of men, there still remains the only means by which we ourselves may know the truth. What does Scripture say? The Holy Spirit spoke through Paul to instruct us so that we too may begin to recognize how God "sets us apart."

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Does Paul claim that he is perfect when he says things like this..."and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness,.."

What is he concerned with here?

Should we too be concerned with what Paul is concerned with?

In Christ
Jeff





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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/29 0:44Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Quote:

""But all this does not imply that he was not living without sin, any more than it implies that Christ was living in sin when he said, "I must walk to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."(Luke 13:32) Here Christ speaks of a perfection which he had not attained.""

The only perfection Christ did not attain at this point was the end of the Cross, "it is finished", The Perfect finishing the Perfect Plan of God, Salvation, to attaining completion in perfect, not to attain perfection Himself, He already was Perfect by the Perfect Seed of the Father.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What has the upper hand over the flesh? It is the mind. Paul recognizes the it is his flesh that is caught up in the law of sin. Since we now have the Mind of Christ; 1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
What good is it if we have the mind of Christ and don't do anything about it? Our flesh stays in the babe stage and we in the flesh do commit sin. As we give in the sanctification process more understanding to the Christ that is in us, we begin to become in our mind what Paul speaks of when he says 146 times we are in Christ. Then we are becoming son's and father's in the Lord, not children, as Rookie has stated: 1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Not only this but when one suffers in the flesh and dies, he has ceased from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

The same goes for us, if we are dead we are loosed from the sin by the Law of God.

By death we no longer are servants of sin, being crucified with Christ, we must see ourselves on the Cross with and in Christ. When The Perfect Head of Jesus Christ fell on dead shoulders, His work was completed, "it is finished" and His perfection and performance was complete, and we are complete in Him, by our death with Him.

It is not that Jesus was not perfect in the Father's sight from birth, because The Father new what Seed was in Jesus. "Seed" The Sperma of God in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit brought forth The only begotten Son of God. God His Father was not depending on Christ Jesus alone but His own Seed that was in Jesus Christ, knowing it would not fail, and to prove it, Jesus learned obedience by the thing He suffered. He was tested all the way to the Cross and never failed. Like a winning proven horse, his offspring are dependant upon the seed of winning stallion and blood line. We are now the son's of God and we are depending on the Seed of the Father birthed in us by Jesus Christ who is now our new life, in who's Seed we must depend on.

Paul separated the flesh, soul, and spirit. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Soul being the mind, will and emotions and the Spirit being the Spirit of Christ birthed in us and being Born Again unto a new creation race of people, that the people (son's) of God with the Mind of Christ and the renewing of our mind by the Spirit of Christ through the Holy Spirit our Teacher.

Spirit rules the Mind and the Mind rules the Flesh. We being Christians, Christ-ones, son's by The Spirit of Christ which is not our spirit, ruling the Mind by the renewing by the Holy Spirit, over flesh. Sanctification complete in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. (((( :30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:))))) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Perfect in a Perfect Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/12/29 2:48Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
Not only this but when one suffers in the flesh and dies, he has ceased from sin.



What might we understand then about dieing? How does this precept relate to growth in sanctification?

Paul writes:

Philippians 3:

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,


1 Corinthians 9

25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul calls on the Galatians...

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

I believe Scripture points to a continuous process of "dieing." This then might be labeled...the gift of repentance.

Just some thoughts...

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/29 5:06Profile
death2self
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Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
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 Re:

Quote:
I have noticed that many seek to base their beliefs on the testimonies of men like Wesley and all the others mentioned in this thread. These are men who have had a personal relationship with our Lord. Yet their experience, is not our experience.

I quoted many of the great saints of old but the need for sanctification is very clear in the scriptures. Here's just a few scriptures: 1 Peter 1, 15 – 16: But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy.’ 2 Corinthians 7, 1: Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 1 John 4, 18: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. The reason I have included what many of the saints of old said is that this is not a new doctrine, but is an actual experience, the experience of the modern Western church notwithstanding. I wouldn't throw out the book of Acts or any of the other scriptures simply because my experience fails to comport with it. The litmus test should always be the scriptures, not an experience or lack of one thereof.

The awesome thing I've discovered as I've searched the scriptures and read many of the accounts over the last 200 years is for those who will enter into this experience, revival has always ensued. It was true with Wesley, Finney, Seymour, and most recently Duncan Campbell and is clearly shown in the scriptures as well.

I would encourage you Jeff and any others who believe this is not a real experience to take this to the Lord in your prayer closet and ask the Holy Spirit to begin to show you. I'm not saying this out a contentious spirit but with a hope that you will seek this for yourself and not rely on any of the saints of old or anything anyone else has said on this topic.

Brother Seymour fervently preached entire sanctification before he had entered into the experience and if I remember correctly he was last in his little congregation to enter into the experience. As they entered into this experience, a great revival ensued. There's a couple of more contemporaneous books (in the 20th century at least) on men that had entered into this: "Remarkable Miracles" by G.C. Bevington and "Rees Howells: Intercessor" by Norman Grubb.

The doctrine itself is not particularly complex and is laid out well scripturally in "Christian Perfection" by John Wesley and "Perfect Love" by J.A. Wood. Both of these men walked in the experience for nearly 50 years and one can readily discern the fruit from their lives. These works contain a very solid scriptural basis but that's something you will need to decide for yourself.

The struggle I see in this thread and in my heart has been an attempt to solely intellectualize the doctrine of entire sanctification without any corresponding move to meet God's conditions. I've spend nearly a year studying the scriptures and seeking God's face about this issue and wholeheartedly believe in what many of the saints have taught.

Here's a quote from a sermon by Catherine Booth entitled "Holiness."
Quote:
This is no new doctrine, I may just remark. Some people not familiar with the history of the Church seem to regard it as a doctrine lately invented. It is as old as Enoch, and from his day down to the present, God has taken care to keep alive in His church, even in the days of Papal darkness, the most thorough-going professors and exemplifies of this doctrine. Those who believed in this blessing and exemplified it in their lives in the dark ages, people went thousands of miles to converse with, and to get the inner light which God had given to them, and numbers of such enquirers were brought into this blessed experience. It has been called “The second conversion,” “The higher life,” “The full assurance of faith”, “Christian Perfection”- to distinguish it from Adamic and angelic – “Perfect Love”, “Inner Sanctification”, “The rest of faith.” We do not contend for names. The main point is this, that the experience designated by most of these terms amounts practically to the same thing, which is BEING SAVED FROM SIN. [ie, saved from the power of sinning, in this life, in addition to salvation from the penalty of sin in the next life].

We care not what you call it so that you understand the blessing to mean that. I prefer to use God’s terms in everything, and so I select His designations. I think that the Holy Ghost understood best the ideas He wished to convey, and therefore I like the terms He has used, such as sanctification, holiness, perfect love. However, we simply take what we like best and do not contend about them.

I've told the Lord quite honestly my own heart about this and my utter rebellion to the doctrine when I was growing up, even though the Holy Spirit had opened it up to me in some measure. I'm not going to convince anyone that this is a real experience by typing in this little box but would encourage you to press in and begin to ask Jesus about it and ask him to open up the scriptures to you.

Blessings to you all in the precious name of Jesus.


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Ed Pugh

 2006/12/29 12:22Profile
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 Re:

1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Many are waiting for the second coming of Christ as the fulfillment of these scriptures. We are to reckon ourselves already dead to the law and sin, and alive unto Christ not at His second coming but now. For He is already in the son's of God, as He promised He would not leave us without comfort and would give life to those that believe.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is what reckon in the Greek means; 3049. logizomai
Search for G3049 in KJVSL
logizomai logizomai log-id'-zom-ahee

middle voice from 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively):--conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

"It is no longer we who live", but Christ who live in us. "The life we now live, we live by the faith Christ". Our Life is already hid with Christ in God. We die daily in our mind, and when this flesh is planted in the ground it will resurrect just like our Spirit is already resurrected and our mind is being resurrected daily to the Mind of Christ, If we die daily, we are already resurrected daily in Christ Jesus. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me". He has already come, in the Spirit of Godliness in the son's of God.

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus Christ is the Comfort, The Holy Spirit is our Comforter. We are life already in Christ Jesus seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Not only this but the Father also. How is a Father a Father? By the Seed, the Sperma of God.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Abode with, is much more than just being along side of or with as we think of being with a brother or sister. It is being part of and in the Love of a Father. We are His offspring and He is our progenitor of Life in Christ Jesus.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/12/29 16:22Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother wrote:

"I quoted many of the great saints of old but the need for sanctification is very clear in the scriptures."

Brother I have no doubt about your heart or that Scripture calls us to be holy. This is the result of obeying the commands of Jesus. My point in this thread and all others is that we will always fall short of knowing Jesus as long as we allow ourselves to be consumed with the lives of other saints. None of us know or see Jesus as He is in this life. But one glorious day we will. According to Scripture, one man sows another can only water, but it is God who gives the increase.

Paul never gets into details about his own life with the Lord, in terms of describing the nature of the ectacasy he himself experienced by the quickening by the Spirit. He always prays that his fellow believers would themselves know the grace in the same way he himself experienced.

Wesley is a perfect example. He walked with God. The Methodist church that I know does not walk as he walked. Men have sought to duplicate Wesley's actions in order to appropriate or call down God according to the flesh.

Paul taught others to look to Jesus, for He is the only One who sanctifies. This is always my endeavor, sometimes I fail to communicate this. Scripture is sufficient in that the words are of the Holy Spirit and that is all we truly need. This is the promise of the New Covenant is it not?

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/29 19:02Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Just a thought on this thread...

What are the contents of holiness. What do the hopes of those who are maturing in Christ look like? What is contained within the heart and thus motivates one into action?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/30 11:31Profile
hisremnant
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Joined: 2006/2/2
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 Re:

Praise our soon coming King!!!

Lets look at what some others say:

John

1jo 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1jo 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1jo 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Peter

1pe 1:15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1pe 1:16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

Paul

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Jude

Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,


James

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.


Jesus

Mt 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus here is summing up the Beatitudes which i humbly submit is a definition or description of entire sanctification.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2006/12/30 12:30Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
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 Re:

The beatitudes are God's wonderful Law. I submit the sum of all we are in Christ Jesus is in ROM 5;

Romans 5:1-11 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Only Christ in us can makes us entirely sanctified, for He has been made our sanctification. This is our new nature by birth, not by works.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/12/30 14:10Profile





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