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GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

I see what you're saying now. I'm glad I got to understand this view a bit better!

God Bless!


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Kristy

 2006/12/27 20:22Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Who is the One that is perfect sanctification? Jesus Christ, correct?

Who is our life now? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who has been made our sanctification? Not something we can attain, but made for us and in us.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What happens if we sin? We know it by the HOLY SPIRIT, who convicts of sin. What do we do? 1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Christ in us cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is the Seed that God see's in the believer, Jesus Christ and that is why God is faithful and Just to forgive us.

So how do we sin? James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Entire Sanctification, absolutely, because it is not me that is sanctified, but the Sanctified One in me, Jesus Christ birthed in the believer.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This is wisdom unto righteousness by being sanctified and redeemed by the Christ that is in you the Hope of Glory.

Paul does not use the born again statement but he does use the word mystery for a new birthing and six other mysteries we don't understand.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Then let us go on into the higher calling of God.
Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In Christ, sanctified completely by the sanctified One Himself that is birthed in us.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/12/27 20:54Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Paul teaches...

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I do not differentiate much between being saved and being 'set apart." We are not "saved" or "sanctified" by faith alone.

What do you believe Paul is refering to when he says that grace is a gift of God, and that this gift is "not of yourselves?"

What is he pointing out to us about our carnal man?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/28 1:00Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Entire Sanctification...Really?

Questions: sanctified from Sin or sins? Entire sanctification? >> Can it be practically expressed without flaw in daily experience? And what about our thoughts? The human brain thinks 1100 seperate thoughts per minute, in light of that who is sufficient to such a walk? And what about faith????What's so evers not of faith is sin, so now we'er in the area of conscience which is where faith is birthed and gives expression and its prime motivator is love, a love that's not even human by nature, agape, perfect love. And if Elijah was such a man as we are (forget Fox, Wesley, and the longggg list of purtains-- I don't even place them anywhere close to Elijah) yet He prayed... maybe there's hope for us???? I have an entire library on Sinless perfection, I don't buy into it though. There is some good stuff though.


It'll only take the most godly man/woman in the world a split second in the manifest presence of Christ to realize they are undone. And yet thoughs who abide IN Christ are as Holy as they will ever be, as they grow in grace they will become more seperated though> 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


All in all most of these issues just seem to be to far above me, I've heard both sides of most arguements and just can't seem to keep up with them, I guess I'll just have to work my own salvation with fear and trembling of God. :-o


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D.Miller

 2006/12/28 1:05Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Paul teaches in another place....

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If Paul taught that he himself was not perfected who else has attained perfection in this life other than Christ?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/28 4:22Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

The writer of Hebrews teaches...

Heb. 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

When does this occur according to Scripture?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/12/28 4:25Profile
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Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Paul teaches in another place....

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Phil. 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If Paul taught that he himself was not perfected who else has attained perfection in this life other than Christ?

In Christ
Jeff



To that I answer...


Phi 3:15 [b][u]Let us therefore[/u][/b], as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

1Co 2:6 [b][u]Howbeit we[/u][/b] speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

He had to have been perfect for both revelations that he was writing about in these epistles.

There are plenty of other scriptures as well which I have already quoted....

Paul did not reach Entire Sanctity? Moral Perfection? You have to read your New testament over again


Here are the scriptures…

(1.) 1Th_2:10 : "Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily, and justly, and unblameably, we behaved ourselves among you that believe."

(2.) 2Co_6:3-7 : "Giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed; but in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessity, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; by pureness, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left."

(3.) 2Co_1:12 : "For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to youward."

(4.) Act_24:16 : "And herein do I exercise myself to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

(5.) 2Ti_1:3 : "I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with a pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day."

(6.) Gal_2:20 : "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

-Paul no longer lived, Christ did, and I don't think Christ led to sin in Paul

(7.) Gal_6:14 : "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

(8.) Phi_1:21 : "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

(9.) Act_20:26 : "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men."

(10.) 1Co_4:16-17 : "Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church."

(11.) 1Co_11:1 : "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

He better have been without sin, otherwise the image of Christ would have been blurred

(12.) Phi_3:17, Phi_3:20 : "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For our conversation is in heaven, from whence we also look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ."

(13.) Phi_4:9 : "Those things, which ye have both learned and received, and heard, and seen in me, do; and the God of peace shall be with you."


If Paul was not sinless, he was an extravagant boaster, and such language used by any minister in these days would be considered as the language of an extravagant boaster.


This setting himself up as an example so frequently and fully, without any caution or qualification, was highly dangerous to the interests of the church, if he was not in a state of entire sanctification.


There is no reason for doubting his having attained this state of entire sanctification

Also about Phil. 3

A great author once said...

Phil.3:10-15. "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect; but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." Upon this passage I remark:--
(i.) Here is a plain allusion to the Olympic games, in which men ran for a prize, and were not crowned until the end of the race, however well they might run.
(ii.) Paul speaks of two kinds of perfection here, one of which he claims to have attained, and the other he had not. The perfection which he had not attained, was that which he did not expect to attain until the end of his race, nor indeed until he had attained the resurrection from the dead. Until then he was not, and did not expect to be perfect, in the sense that he should "apprehend all that for which he was apprehended of Christ Jesus."

But all this does not imply that he was not living without sin, any more than it implies that Christ was living in sin when he said, "I must walk to-day and to-morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."(Luke 13:32) Here Christ speaks of a perfection which he had not attained.


Now it is manifest, that it was the glorified state to which Paul had not attained, and which perfection he was pressing after. But in the fifteenth verse, he speaks of another kind of perfection, which he professed to have attained. "Let us therefore," he says, "as many as be perfect, be thus minded;" that is, let us be pressing after this high state of perfection in glory, "if by any means we may attain unto the resurrection of the dead." The figure of the games should be kept continually in mind, in the interpretation of this passage. The prize in those races was the crown. This was given only at the end of the race. And besides, a man was "not crowned except he ran lawfully," that is, according to rule. Paul was running for the prize, that is, the crown, not, as some suppose, for entire sanctification, but for a crown of glory. This he did not expect until he had completed his race. He exhorts those who were perfect, that is, those who were running lawfully or according to rule, to forget the things that were behind, and press to the mark, that is, the goal, for the prize, or the crown of glory, which the Lord, the righteous judge, who was witnessing his race to award the crown to the victor, would give him at that day.

Now it is manifest to my mind, that Paul does not in this passage, teach expressly nor impliedly, that he was living in sin, but the direct opposite--that he meant to say, as he had said in many other places, that he was unblameable in respect to sin, but that he was aspiring after higher attainments, and meant to be satisfied with nothing short of eternal glory.


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Giancarlo

 2006/12/28 11:01Profile
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 Re:

Also on Phil. 3

KJV is the only one that keeps the word perfect there, all other translations take out for their convenience and to quiet their conscience...

But here is the words for perfect in that portion of scripture...

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

G5048
τελειόω
teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

This can only be speaking of glorification...

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Pretty eye opening huh?


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Giancarlo

 2006/12/28 11:05Profile
TrueWitness
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 Re:

I would hope that everyone is aware of the heresy of Pelagianism. If not, here is a brief description:

Pelagianism derives its name from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome, though he was British by birth. It is a heresy dealing with the nature of man. Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. In other words, a person's free will is totally capable of choosing God and/or to do good or bad without the aid of Divine intervention. Pelagianism teaches that man's nature is basically good. Thus it denies original sin, the doctrine that we have inherited a sinful nature from Adam. He said that Adam only hurt himself when he fell and all of his descendents were not affected by Adam's sin. Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God. He taught that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will and rational thought. God's grace, then, is merely an aid to help individuals come to Him.
Pelagianism fails to understand man's nature and weakness. We are by nature sinners (Eph. 2:3; Psalm 51:5). We all have sinned because sin entered the world through Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12, NIV). Furthermore, Romans 3:10-12 says, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” Therefore, we are unable to do God's will (Rom. 6:16; 7:14). We were affected by the fall of Adam, contrary to what Pelagius taught.

Pelagianism has been condemned as heretical by the Christian Church since the 5th century. The effect of the teaching leads to self righteousness which is probably the worst sin other than hypocrisy.

 2006/12/28 11:32Profile
death2self
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Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
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 Re:

Thank you for sharing that information on Pelagainism. Wesley taught that "entire sanctification" was totally by faith and not by works. If anyone has ever tried to achieve victory over sin through the flesh, they quickly see the lie of Pelagianism. Apart from suppression which is not deliverance, I have never had any victory over sin but through that precious blood of Jesus I've had victory and that's His work.

Sanctification is clearly something where God is both the initiator and the one who completes the work. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful and [u]he will do it[/u].

It's interesting to note that the word hagios is never referenced in the New Testament as a future (i.e. after death) experience. That little snippet came from a dear brother, Malcolm Lavendar, a Pastor, Greek scholar and the author of "The Fallacy of the Sinning Christian." God wants to change our hearts on this side of heaven and is faithful to do what he promised.

John Wesley, in 1771, wrote: "Many years since, I saw that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. I began by following after it. Ten years after God gave me a clearer view than I had before how to obtain it; namely, by faith in the Son of God; and immediately I declared to all: We are saved from Sin, WE ARE MADE HOLY BY FAITH. This I testified in private, in public, in print, and God confirmed it by a thousand witnesses."

Here's a quote from A.M. Hills, the great theologian from his book "The Uttermost Salvation."

What is the nature of sanctifying faith?

1. -- It is a clear intellectual apprehension of a great truth. There is indeed a great truth as the basis of all rational faith on any subject; for rational faith is not credulity. On this particular subject there must be an apprehension of the fall of man and the consequent depravity of the race, from which every son and daughter of Adam needs to be cleansed. Evolutionists flatly deny all this; but the whole Bible states or assumes this fact, and bases the whole plan of salvation upon it. This truth must be known and accepted.

2. -- It must be accepted as true that Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit is the remedy for us by the atonement. This is why we are told that "the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). "Wherefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate" (Heb. 13:12 and 10:10, and .Eph. 5:25).

But we are as plainly told that the work is accomplished by the baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire (Matt. 3:11; Mal. 3:3). "Giving them the Holy Ghost . . . cleansing their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8, 9).

3. -- It is a heart-faith. Not only the intellect but the whole moral nature is involved in it, intellect, sensibility and will. Moody said: "Saving faith involves assent, consent, and laying hold." Dr. Whedon says: "Saving faith is that belief of the intellect, consent of the affections and act of the will by which the soul places itself in the keeping of Christ as its Ruler and Savior."

4. -- Saving faith involves a ceasing from labor. Our own efforts end. In rescuing a drowning man, an experienced swimmer waits till the man ceases to struggle. Faith is a self-committal of the whole matter of salvation to God, a sinking of self down into Him and resting there.

When Blondin, the famous tight-rope gymnast, proposed to wheel a man in a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls, he asked Blondin what he should do. "Do?" said Blondin, "do nothing but lie in the barrow like a dead man. I will take you over." And Blondin did it. So when a soul seeks sanctification, it complies with all the preliminary conditions which precede faith. Then faith CONFIDENTLY TRUSTS, WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE OF FEELING, THAT GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISE AND SANCTIFIES. God never fails such a believing heart. He does it.


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Ed Pugh

 2006/12/28 12:13Profile





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