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lovegrace
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Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Ron and Robert thanks very much. Cleared some 'headway' on this.

Now, I have another question for you Ron (Philologos). What would you define your theology on atonement, like the 'title' or name?

 2007/1/5 16:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is not what Barnes is saying.



I'll see if I can get the exact quote for you. I haven't fully read Finneys atonement views yet. But it reading Barnes where I read about the sufferings themselves, not only the person, being substituted. Barnes rejected the view that Christ paid the exact penalty of the law, but rather that He and His sufferings were a substitute for sinners and their sufferings; Seeing that Christ was not the sinner, and his death was not eternal hell.

I know that Albert Barnes was moral government in theology. But not sure exactly what that implies, other then his atonement view.

But I'll get the exact quotations from his book for you about how Christ did not pay the "literal payment" as Barnes calls it, but that even his sufferings were a "substitution" upon which we can be pardoned of our past sins.

 2007/1/6 14:55
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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Ca.

 Re:

1Pe 2:24 Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

He drank the cup of the sin of the world and all that believe are healed.

Right in the middle of Christ and the Father are; "by whose stripes ye are healed"

Healed; "Made Whole" The death blows He took for us, makes us whole in Christ Jesus, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", who's glory? God the Father Who has birthed His precious Son in each believer by His Faith mustered in us by Himself the Word, Through the Holy Spirit.

This; Jer 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

Or this;
Mar 14:36 And He said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto Thee; take away this cup from Me: nevertheless not what I will, but what Thou wilt.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/1/6 20:03Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
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 Re:

Quote:
Since our punishment is eternal hell, and eternal hell is the punishment of each individual sinner, then there would need to be a single Christ, for each single sinner, who is eternally burning in hell. But we know that Christ is not burning in hell, which very simply concludes Christ did not recieve our punishment.



Isn't our "punishment" death (eternal)? Christ died physically to pay for our death eternal.

There is no need for more "Christs" Jesus was God in the flesh and was able to bear the sins of the world and take the wrath of God on the cross.


1Pe 2:24 Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


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Kristy

 2007/1/8 9:49Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
Now, I have another question for you Ron (Philologos). What would you define your theology on atonement, like the 'title' or name?



Penal Substitution.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/1/8 14:45Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

The Spirit of a man is new in salvation. The soul of a man is being renewed to the Spirit of Christ in a man . The flesh must be planted in the ground and die, unless a seed is planted in the ground it cannot produce fruit. The Spirit, done, The soul, being done, the flesh, will be done. The Spirit and soul are already seated In heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

What has been crucified with Christ? Since we yet live it is not the body of flesh which is our temple filled with the Quickening Holy Spirit. What was crucified with Christ was our old spirit, our old man, and our old soul that is being renewed to the mind of Christ which we now have by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unto salvation.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/1/8 15:53Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Quote:
What has been crucified with Christ? Since we yet live it is not the body of flesh which is our temple filled with the Quickening Holy Spirit. What was crucified with Christ was our old spirit, our old man, and our old soul that is being renewed to the mind of Christ which we now have by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unto salvation.


Our soul, the real me, is still in process of Christ's crucifixion. In [color=0000ff]“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Gal 2:20 NKJV)[/color] Paul uses the Perfect Tense signifying not the single event but a process that began in the past and continues into the present; hence it can be translated 'I have been and still am crucified with Christ'. Paul never uses the Perfect Tense when speaking of the Old Man but always the Aorist.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/1/9 2:49Profile









 Re:

:-)

 2007/1/9 16:51









 Re:

Quote:
Understanding the "punishment" view of the atonement, I see that there are three possible views within this over all view.

1. If Christ received the punishment of the entire world, but some do not make it to Heaven when they die, but will be punished in hell, then God in effect issues double punishment for one sin.

We could call this the double punishment view.

2. If Christ received the punishment of the entire world, but God is too just to give double punishment for one sin, then all sin has been punished, so the world will will make it into Heaven.

We call this Universalism.

3. Christ received the punishment of sinners on the cross, but it was not the punishment of all sinners. God would not give double punishment, but God did not die for the whole world, so only those for whom Christ died will escape punishment, but those for whom Christ was not punished, will receive their own punishment.

This is called Limited Atonement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who do not hold to the 'Moral Government' view of atonement, what are your comments regarding his understanding of the punishment view?



I too would be interested in their comments.

Quote:
This is not what Barnes is saying.



I originally bought "The Atonement" by Albert Barnes when I saw that it was Ravenhills #1 recommended book out of his top 40.

And since I've been studying Finneys Moral Government Theology, I've become increasingly interested in Albert Barnes work. I recently read Finneys Lectures on the Atonement and find them identical with Albert Barnes. It appears that Albert Barnes really adopted most, if not all, of Finneys points on the atonement.

Here are the quotes I promised, where Albert Barnes taught that not only was the person (Christ for the sinner) substituted, but also that the action (the temporal sufferings of Christ for the eternal torment of sinners) substituted as well. It's a two fold substitutionary atonement. Christ is in the place of the sinner, and His temporal sufferings are in the place of eternal torment.

"He suffered and died in the place of sinners. That not only was he himself a substitute but that his sufferings were substituted sufferings, and not the literal penalty of the law." Page 276

"The sufferings of the Redeemer were substituted sufferings, or that they were not the real and literal penalty of the law." Page 288

"The sufferings themselves were substituted sufferings, or that they were not the real and literal penalty of the law, but were in the place of that penalty and were designed to answer the same end." Page 288

"I have endeavoured to show that it does not enter into a just view of the atonement that he who made it should endure the same sufferings as the gulty for hom he died, or that he should bear the same amount of sufferings; or in other words, that he should endure the literal penalty of the law." Page 288

"The doctrine of the Bible is that his sufferings were substituted sufferings, as well as that he himself was a substituted person." Page 288

"The statements of the Bible do not imply that he endured the penalty of the law; and third, that the doctrine of the Bible is that his sufferings were substituted sufferings." Page 289

So our deserve of eternal torment was substituted with Christ's undeserved temporal suffering, and our being was substituted with the being of Christ.

Retributive Justice respects the letter of the Law and demands eternal punishment. Because Retributive Justice requires eternal punishment, it can never be complete or satisfied, since eternity never ends. It is forever unsatisfied and uncomplete as long as it requires eternal punishment.

But Public Justice respects the Spirit of the Law, which is the reason for the laws in the first place. The reason they were given were for the highest well-being of all, to secure obedience and protect from disobedience.

So the cross was not the reception of the literal punishment demanded by the letter of the Law, in the sense of Retributive Justice, seeing that it was not etneral hell. But the cross was regarding Public Justice, in that it better works towards the end or purpose of the laws to begin with (obedience for the good of all), being more beneficial to the Spirit or end desired by the Law,

But to get a better understanding of this view of the atonement I would recommend reading Albert Barnes or Charles Finney.

 2007/1/9 16:52
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
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 Re:

This is the way I See Christ in the believer and the believer in Christ:

CHRIST/\the believer in Christ/\CHRIST IN THE BELIEVER/\CHRIST

If I am crucified with Him, it was Him on the Cross in me and me on the Cross in Him. We were on the Cross together as One.

Rom 6:10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.

If He died to sin once, then I in Him died to sin once also. If He lives unto God, then I in Him liveth to God also.

This is the one time sanctification made of God in Jesus Christ for us. This is also the one time justification made of God in Christ Jesus for us.

He has also become our wisdom and righteousness. In other words it is no longer I who am righteous but Him who is in me. I am no longer wise but He that is in me is wise.

In this Reciprocal Indwelling of Christ and the believer, 1.I am sanctified, 2.I am being sanctified and 3.I will be sanctified. 1,Spirit, 2.Soul, 3.Body "If we have not the Spirit of Christ we are none of His" 1.The Holy Spirit wielding the double edged sword dividing asunder the soul and spirit, making the New Spirit Creature born again of the Spirit of Christ, which is now me. 2. The Holy Spirit in me now sanctified forever is sanctifying the soul, (MIND)He is teaching the mind this Christ and not speaking of Himself, but whatever Christ has said. 3. The Body is sanctified by the quickening of the Holy Spirit by the Spirit of Christ and will be sanctified on resurrection morning or in the twinkling of an eye.

!. Spirit, Sanctified complete, 2. Soul sanctified and being sanctified forever, 3. Body is sanctified, being readied for planting, will be sanctified complete, New body like His.

Spirit, Soul, Body. 1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/1/9 18:44Profile





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