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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
It would be torture beyond thinking for an angel to be separated from God, for the Son to be separated from the Father is truly ineffable.



[i]Very[/i] well spoken, brother. This is a shattering concept, and true to the core.

Quote:
If this does not fit into your theory it is time to change your theory or do not pretend to being a bible-believer.



Painful, but true as well.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/12/16 14:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If this does not fit into your theory it is time to change your theory or do not pretend to being a bible-believer.



Amen. This could also be said in relation of Jesus being forsaken and it being compatable with the Trinity Doctrine.

 2006/12/16 15:36









 Re:

This:

Quote:
God is not "made up" of anything. He is not Father + Son + Holy Spirit. He is not a sum of parts.



is not different from this:

Quote:
We know that Father is God and Son is God (refuting Arianism) and Holy Spirit is God, but we also know that there is only ONE GOD (refuting tritheism). We know that all three exist "simultaneously" and "individually" if you will (refuting modalism).



they both agree with this:

[url=http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/shield-trinity-english.gif]Trinity Diagram[/url]

So what are you saying?



Quote:
Have you read Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy? He does a magnificent job of showing the unity and consistency of God, without confusing all the truths we know about Him in a way that makes Him "made up of" anything. I reccommend reading it and also reading Abraham's encounter with YHWH in Genesis 18 in the King James Version paying specific attention to the transitions between singular (I/Thee/Thou) and plural (Ye/You). I believe this passage alone sought with much prayer may help you understand God's nature (as attempted to be explained by Trinitarian theology) much better.



Thanks.. I will check out the book by Tozer. I have been meaning to ready it. :) I'll look at Gen 18 today too.

In Him,

sscott


 2006/12/16 15:42
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
they both agree with this:

Trinity Diagram

So what are you saying?


The link didn't work but then neither would any 'Trinity Diagram'. ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/12/18 5:02Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Hi guys-- actually that triangle type diagram is taught in many bible colleges as a way to explain the Trinity, but it has to be noted that God is more than 2 demensional. But in theory you can't have a triangle with any of the points gone or missing. I've heard others illustrations along the same lines, water, vapor, ice, ect... But I have to admit the whole subject of trinity/triune God is a difficult one and one in which very few are able to grappel with and keep thier intellengence and faith intact. :-o


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/12/18 9:50Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
for the Son to be separated from the Father is truly ineffable.



It is impossible for the Son to be separated from the Father. If Christ had been separated from the Father on the cross, how is it that they were joined together again? How is it that Christ was able to raise Himself? How could the Son who was separated from the Father have authority to raise Himself as He says in John 10:18 (NAS), "I have authority to take it up again?"

Sscott is correct in his thinking. Your two doctrines are incompatible. You cannot say this: "He is not a sum of parts," and then say, "the Son was separated from the Father." That is nonsense. How could the Son be separated from the Father if they are one?

The theology I have presented does not have holes like this. It does not because it was not created by men. What I have presented comes from God. I know you do not believe this. I know this is difficult to believe.

What I can't understand is why you think so highly of yourself to question not merely my teachings, but my faith as well? Sscott has stated that he disagrees with me, but not once has he called my faith into question. But you say things like "I fear that in this obsession you are not God's instrument but another's." Whether what I say is right or wrong, it is not your place to question my relationship with God.

Quote:
Either Christ was mistaken or you are mistaken.



Is it possible that you are mistaken and your interpretation is incorrect? Are you absolutely positive that Christ was saying for a fact that He was forsaken by the Father?

Quote:
If this does not fit into your theory it is time to change your theory or do not pretend to being a bible-believer.



This is not my theory. I have told you that this is what God has given to me.

Ron, who is pretending to be a bible believer? Why do you not listen to these verses:

1 Thessalonians 5:20 (NKJ) "Do not despise prophecies."

Proverbs 9:12 (NKJ)
"If you are wise, you are wise for yourself, And if you scoff, you will bear it alone."

I am not pretending to be a bible-believer. I have said plainly, I believe in Jesus Christ. I have surrendered everything to Him. Because of this, He has revealed to me truth in scripture. I believe the bible and understand it because of Jesus Christ.

However, there are people (and I am not saying you are one as I do not know) who believe in God because of the bible. They are trying to come unto God through the bible. And yet, Christ was recorded as saying in John 10:1 (NKJ), "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."; and in John 10:7 "Then Jesus said to them again, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.'" Jesus is the only way.

If a person believes in Christ, they will naturally come unto the bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

But there are many who come unto the bible without Christ. They are not seeking Christ first, but rather, are trying to come through a different door. These have developed man-made theories based upon academic and intellectual reasoning. They have depended on their own understanding first, and then tried to interpret scripture accordingly. They do not interpret scripture by the Spirit, but rather by their own intellectual understanding.

I tell you now by the authority of Christ that is what you are doing with this verse. You are saying "Either Christ was mistaken or you are mistaken." But you are not humble enough to question your own intellect. Is it possible that you are not seeing this verse in the proper light? Are you depending on your own understanding? Have you truly consulted Christ in humility open to any possibility so that He can direct you?

I have prayed over every word of yours and mine. I have not despised your teachings and have taken them to heart. I have stated what Christ has given me. I have even said that I could be wrong in unseen tears. I have tried to show you the truth in light of other scripture. I have prayed over you and over this, but you still continue to attack me. Why? What are you afraid of?

Ron, it is okay if we disagree on this. Quite obviously, Christ will judge us both for every word we speak as teachers and preachers. I am not your judge, and I do not want to be. I have made a submission in accord with Christ. The rest is between you and God. I am merely a servant.

I don't know what else to say. I don't want to debate with you. I want to be reconciled as brothers in Christ. I have offered myself to you in love. I have apologized. The rest is in your hands.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/12/18 10:35Profile









 Re:

Yea.. No diagram would be able to fully explain God. I'm sure it's a best attempt. Don't know why but the link seems to only work if you copy and paste it into your browers.

Here it is:


http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/shield-trinity-english.gif

 2006/12/18 11:05
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

"It is impossible for the Son to be separated from the Father." beenblake

"My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me" Jesus Christ.

Guess who I am going to believe?

Quote:
Ron, who is pretending to be a bible believer? Why do you not listen to these verses:

Of course, I had forgotten you don't believe in the inerrancy of the scripture, nor apparently, of Christ's own words. Christ only prayed for those who would come to faith through the testimony of his apostles. You are out on a limb.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/12/18 11:13Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

mm? I keep getting
403 Forbidden
You must supply a local referer to get URL '/shield-trinity-english.gif' from this server. from your link.

OK I managed to get to it by another route. I have no desire to refute it. Certainly my own understanding would fit into that shape but so would tri-theism. As has been said anything which can be reduced to two dimensions is going to have severe limitations when applied to an all-dimensional God.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/12/18 11:15Profile









 Re:

Don't click on it. Copy and past it. Should work.

If that doesn't work go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity

Look under the heading "Variations". There are 4 pics. Look at the on on the bottom right corner.

 2006/12/18 11:20





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