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NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Can we really say that Jesus accepted divorce when he cites the beginning as His interpretation of how marriage is to be and then says "what God has joined let man not put asunder." I'm just not willing to say that He accepted it any more than he accepted hating your enemy.

Makes sense to me that divorce is synonymous to adultery in the same way that hatred is to murder.


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/12/1 15:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
In the translating of the KJV, the word "Wife", is understood by us to mean already married.



I think you're correct, but you're giving undo credit to the KJV. That wife was in all of the English translations before the KJV.

Everyone wants to "blame it on the KJV" (altho I dont think you were meaning that in a negative way), yet the translators who preceeded the KJV also translated many things the same way.

Krispy

 2006/12/1 15:37
AshleyJnr
Member



Joined: 2006/6/17
Posts: 45
Guolburn, NSW Australia

 Re:

Umm... I hope this doesn't disjoint the thread. I have only written 1 post on this thread, but I would like to apolopgize.

Earlier I had written a sarcastic jibe about changing wedding vows. This was not written in love, nor was it helpful for building up brothers and sisters who are divored. I am very sorry. Please forgive me.

Lord please forgive me and help me to control my tounge!!!

 2006/12/1 16:17Profile
AshleyJnr
Member



Joined: 2006/6/17
Posts: 45
Guolburn, NSW Australia

 Re:

1 Corinthians7
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

From reading Mat 5 and mat 19, it doesn't seem to me that Jesus is endorsing remarriage to a different spouse. And from this verse and in Romans 7, doesn't it suggest that remarriage to another spouse is not approprtiate?


I'm not married let alone divorced, so I have no idea how hard it must be for those in the midst of this ugly thing. But it does deeply sadden me to see so many brothers and sisters who have had to deal with divorce. I will be praying for you.

 2006/12/1 16:28Profile
adamdawkins
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 140


 Re:

The scripture's of the words of Jesus on this matter have been quoted several times - and I agree with them and don't feel a need to repeat them.

About the point that God divorced Israel, Jesus permitted that marital unfaithfulness (fornication) was a just reason for divorce, God often describes Israel as a harlot and adulteress.

That may have been mentioned, I haven't read all 8 pages I confess.

But what's important here isn't merely the theology. What I mean is, it's not helpful to merely show that God hates (or doesn't - I believe he does) divorce. What is important is that in light of God's hatred for divorce, that those who have gone through it are comforted, not through changing doctrine to support them but by emphasising the love and grace of God in [i]light[/i]of His hatred for sin.

It seems too often some people feel that either God's hatred of sin overrides His love and grace or that because God is love and He acts in grace, that He can't really hate sin at all.

We need to remember that God is love, that's why He sent Jesus Christ to die to purge the sin that He hates!

I digress - I found some notes I wrote on the Matthew 19v7-8 passage a while back, and have never found a full need to put them to use so will do here:

----

Matthew 19v7-8:

"...Because of your hard-heartedness Moses allowed you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so."

Hard-heartedness: Gr. complete poverty or deficiency of spiritual perception.

That is that "What God has joined" in marriage is to be viewed from a spiritual perspective, with Godly wisdom and conduct.

As a conclusion, soft-heartedness towards God, (spirutal perceptive and receptiveness) would lead to there being no need for a 'certificate of divorce' (Deu 24v1-4) because the God-ordained relationship would be viewed from a spiritual perspective - marriage is a spiritual relationship.

from the beginning it was not so:

In the beginning, with soft-heartedness to God, marriage existed, certificates of divorce didn't.

"From the beginning"; Before the Fall of Man - i.e. When things were perfect.

-----

I think this view on divorce can speak to all of us about all areas where our will is challenged to the very depths of our soul by the commands of God. I believe that if God says no to divorce here (which He does in His hatred for sin) - then He also has plans for the restoration of the marriage in His love and grace.

AND His love and grace are sufficient to forgive and cleanse those who HAVE sinned through divorce.

There, the two main trains of thought I've found on here are merged. I hope no-one who has gone through divorce feels I've been unsympathetic, perhaps too much of this reply has been about doctrine.

God bless,

Adam.

P.S. Sorry for the length.

 2006/12/1 21:00Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote by Dorcas:

However, I note you never quote Matthew's 5:32, 19:9 or John 8.

OK, so you want my take on Matthew 5:32...so here goes.

Matthew 5:1-12 deals with what is referred to as the Beatitudes. Fast forward to v. 17 where Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law or the Prophets but to fulfill. More explanation follows in the next two verses. Then he changes the subject slightly in v. 21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time…and he reiterates OT law dealing with murder (v. 21 -), adultery (v. 27-32), false vows (v. 33-37), eye for an eye( v. 38-42), etc. You get the idea.

Whenever Jesus quotes an OT law, he amplifies it, broadens it more then what was understood in the OT. In other words he tightens the noose more. So when he discusses adultery, he tells us what all adultery is beginning in v. 27: it consists of: lust, divorce and marriage to a divorced person. In between times he amplifies each, explains more before proceeding to the next point.

Now about divorce being adultery: Jesus says divorce (alone) is adultery unless there has been the case of unchasity but then proceeds to say that whoever marries a divorced person is committing adultery. This is the way Luke reads it as well as Romans. Matthew 19:9 reiterates the same concept.

John 8: The Pharisees brought to Jesus a woman caught in adultery where he ends up saying “Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more.” One thing you must understand from the text is it say this woman was caught in adultery – where was her partner? Why did they only bring the female? These Pharisees were as hypocritical as they could be. The male was just as guilty and was just as subject to the penalty for sin as the woman. These Pharisees were guilty of hypocrisy of the first class: holding the female guilty of a sin while letting the male go free!

In the end. Jesus did not say it was alright for her to continue doing what she was but told her to “Go, and sin no more.”

Dorcas I have worked at a CPC for 15 years and have talked with people involved in all kinds of sins imaginable. When I had divorced persons, I would ask them what they felt about that. I got two different answers: the average person said “It is sin”. "How do you know it is," I ask them? They will tell me: "You know what the Bible says…” The other answer given is similar to yours but these people work hard to justify themselves. Reminds me of Luke 16:15: And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify themselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Dorcas, in discussing this issue, I pick up that the one point people do not want to admit but it factors in here: the issue basically is chasity*. People have the idea they have the right to s** whenever they please. To be in a situation where it is denied them does not seem fair. “You mean to tell me the young man whose wife left him is not allowed to remarry?” Meaning he has to forgo physical intimacy for the rest of his now disposed of wife’s life? If sex would not be involved it would be no issue. God made man and women to enjoy each other but only within certain limits and those limits have been set by our creator for our good and his honor and glory and we do well to be obedient to this. Failure to do so is sin.

ginnyrose

*EDIT: the word celibate or celibacy would be a better word to use here.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/12/1 22:24Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Dorcas wrote:

Quote:
If this is so, why does Jesus EVER permit remarriage?



He only does if the first spouse has died. Read Romans 7:3. The writer Paul is using this as an illustration to make another point...using a principle understood by the readers. He said being married the second time is ok if the first spouse has died, otherwise - if the first spouse is still living - it is adultry.

Simple.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/12/1 22:31Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Why post this?

Krispy,

Why would you post this knowing it is a lie? Do you so desire to stir contention among your brothers and sisters?

Quote:
Putting out is altogether different than divorce in Jewish culture. A man would permanently kick his wife out, denying her the Jewish divorce certificate.



This statement is entirely false in the context of the bible.

Malachi 2:16 (NAS) "For I hate divorce,"

The word "divorce" used here is the Hebrew word "Shalach" which is a word used in a variety of contexts. Indeed, the meaning of this word in our language is close to "put out." However, this same word is used in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 24:3 (NAS)
"and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house,"

In this case, the husband has given the woman a certificate of divorce and sent her out. This is a case where the "putting out" of the woman was done by giving her a certificate of divorce.

Only the Devil would promote a message that attempts to alter God's Holy Law. He is the author of lawlessness. Instead of accepting forgiveness brought about by the cross, this message gives people relief from guilt by belittling the law. I pray for all Christ's followers that they may not be so foolishly drawn in by such lies.

Indeed, God detests divorce. In addition, He has brought forgiveness for all sin through the death of His Son. There is no way other way to recieve this wonderful gift than through Jesus Christ. Altering or belittling God's testimony will not remove guilt or sin. Divorce is a sin.

In the name of Christ,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/12/1 22:51Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re: Why post this?

I have been a way for a while but I'll answer the question to this post. "Does God hate divorce?"

The bible says God hates sin!! SIN! ALL SIN!!




_________________
Brent

 2006/12/1 22:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

lastblast wrote:
He doesn't when one has a LIVING covenant spouse. That is perfectly reflected in Paul's teachings in Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39.

If one has not yet "married" (but are betrothed), they ARE free to marry as are those who have forsaken unlawful marriages not joined by God.

Sorry cindy, but betrothal is a lawfully and religiously binding marriage.
That hometaking had not occured did not make this woman any less a wife...thus the reason for her death in Deut 22 if she cheated on her husband.

 2006/12/2 0:31





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