| Re: brother Paul|
Well, I tried :-)
Thanks for the discussion, Bartle. The Lord bless and keep you.
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/11/18 19:35||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
My, how am I ever going to catch up? What a tremendous thread! Mamaluk ... think you are right there about the 'fortunate', hindsight would have chosen something other to insert there ... I well know what you mean contrasted with the squeaky clean and so forth ... even then, the mind holding all kinds of entrapments and unspoken evils ... But I get you.
Paul ... about Stryper, well you got me in a pickle now, because I agree .... [i]now[/i]. Again, experience vs. condoning or approving, supporting ... Ah, this is rather difficult is it not? Think some careful reading back through my blabbering would show something of talking out of both sides of the mouth though I am not in any way looking for a cop out. Hindsight is something painful sometimes. So much to consider, 'those day's' and as you honestly mentioned, did very much the same, drinking beer, the herb, all that but with a difference ... One of my best friends and I wanted to know God, just the opposite reaction and in the whole muddiness of where our heads were at, bluntly, we wanted the best of both worlds, naturally... We were pretty naive' in those days early on. When they first came to town and were playing stadiums back then ... You'll love this, we had no idea how to dress and not wanting to be out of place, basically put on the closest thing to our 'Sunday best', imagine the shock and horror to find the vast majority decked out in the normal headbanger wear :-D We felt like complete idiots and looked the part!
The second go round ... trying to be honest here and the memory has it's own tricks to play, but recall being convicted at a point when Sweet, in between songs was talking about the Lord, it's fuzzy but also recall a point where some girls where getting up on stage, going after them and he had to them almost Paul-like that 'this is not what it's all about' ... yeah, they brought upon themselves...
Brother it is impossible to disagree with you here really, I can no more suggest all this than I could turn around and rail against it... It is what it was ... (My, where did that come from?)
Surely having come further down the pike and been challenged in so many ways here, from this vast resource of collected saints ... it is a look back, not all good, not what I would really even 'support' frankly ... As I mentioned earlier, don't listen to any music these days and if I had a preference would lean towards classical. It is and has everything to do with inward intimation and a chagrin for being played with emotionally, but and must emphasize this extremely well, it is my own 'conviction', "others may, you cannot" and I have to leave it at that. Full well recognize that some day perhaps the Lord might have me pick up the instrument again, perhaps not. It matters little to me now.
Just to share perhaps a bit more ... As this growing sense of leaving off music began to grow and it was very much beneath the surface (redundantly), noticed far later afterwards, almost a surprise, never intended it purposefully... When it did start to hit me, there was a great deal of sadness, here I was now facing the greatest horror of my life, the greatest fear ... that I would never attain to all that I thought I was created to do, play music. What will become of me? The whole thing was shattering to my whole sense of being, 'purpose' as I had imagined it after so many years.
But the Lord... Ah, what can I say? I still in all honesty do not know ...[i]what[/i] but am just bowled over and full of wonder these days. Have learned in one sense not to 'anticipate' or better 'premeditate' what is up around the corner. The Lord seems quite adept at throwing those curves and changing circumstances just about when you think you got it all pegged and you know what? It is fantastic! Paul's contentment, with Paul's admonishen; "Take heed, lest you fall" It is the most incredible journey, not two weeks ago it was this brutal attacking of the senses, anguish of soul and heart break and ... warfare! And today, wonderful conversation, just by a note from one of our own here, that lifted the spirit to soaring heights and great praise and thanks to God.
Great is the mystery ...
And lest I forget, another that brought forth the same;
Now, my dear son and I, (who asked Jesus into his heart the day I was water baptized, and was baptized with me, Praise God!!) my son and I love to attend baseball games, its such an intimate time for us, and I usually have access to really good seats, and we sit with arms around each other, both eating soft serve ice cream, talking, about life, and analyzing the game...its a wonderful time of fellowship, father and son...love.....and I remember one time, as you might know fans love to drink beer at the game, and one night at the Da Cell (White Sox Park) there was this poor young man, stewed to the gills, hollering, swearing, cursing, "f this and f that, and you s*ck!!", etc etc, and I remember saying to my boy, "look at that, look what alcohol does to ya....bad behavior, rude, do me a favor kid, stay away from the booze, its a bad end"....and he was in total agreement, because this foulness was just taking away from the sweet time we were sharing, and finally I had enough, and said to my boy, "Thats it, daddies had enough, you wait here", and I went down to the three rows below, this drunk kid was next to the field, and I said real evenly, not angry, "Hey bud, how ya doing?...he turned around smiling, and yelled, "Great!!! Go Sox"...and then I said, "brother could you do me a huge favor?"..."sure man, whatever you need"...and then I said, "I got a ten year old boy up there, and I really don't want him to get a foul mouth, so I need your help, could ya just, y'know tone it down, it'd be a huge favor to me".....now this guy was much bigger, but in an instant he shrank, and he looked back, saw my boy, and "oh man, I'm really sorry, I'l stop". I smiled and said, "I thank you brother, God bless you"...and then he said "God bless you too, I'm sorry"....I then said, "its a great game, isnt it?" He smiled and said "yeh!"....I stayed for one more second, and said , "you believe in Jesus?"...he replied, "yeh, I do"....and I said, "Praise God, then you know what to do".
Paul, this guy was as quiet as church mouse after that, and we enjoyed a really great game, and I know that this young man was mightily convicted by a soft firm loving rebuke/request.
What a wonderful accounting, what a wonderful band of peculiar loving misfits.
| 2006/11/18 20:22||Profile|
You'll love this, we had no idea how to dress and not wanting to be out of place, basically put on the closest thing to our 'Sunday best', imagine the shock and horror to find the vast majority decked out in the normal headbanger wear We felt like complete idiots and looked the part!
Ahhh, Mike. That's hilarious! I bet you guys felt pretty awkward! Nowadays, it's pretty much the same in the [i]church[/i] - you come in with a button shirt and tie and just about everyone else is in jeans and shorts and casual shirts. You almost feel like they're thinking, "Who does this guy think he is? Someone special to be wearing a tie?"
I remember Keith Daniel saying that the first thing to occur in a church departing from God is the contamination of the music, then it's the lack of standard in dress, and then, finally, sin and judgment are no longer preached.
Just the facts.
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/11/18 20:45||Profile|
Have only read a couple posts in this thread and I'm not sure where I am coming in in the post here, or who I am going to agree with or throw cold water on, but here is my two cents.
I was saved out of the "wordly" musician lifestyle. I don't believe music is evil, but it can be a tool of either side. And Satan is using this tool to blind the minds of the lost.
I played in a band that sang a song called "Hellbound," and I didn't even think twice about singing it. We played with another band that would light crosses on fire, etc, etc. It is obvious that many stars give themselves freely to the spirit of Antichrist.
I don't want to get on a high horse with this, but the Spirit of God spoke to me very soon after getting saved and I got rid of hundreds of dollars worth of CD's. Rush: "What you own is your own kingdom, What you do is your own glory, What you love is your own power, What you live is your own story, In your head is the answer, Let it guide you along..."
Many, many other CD's were thrown away because the lyrics that I still have memorized today seemed obviously contrary to the Word of God.
I don't make it a point to regularly preach against rock music or any sort of thing like that, as I think the Spirit of God will speak into an individual's life who is genuinely born of the Spirit, but I am saddened at the obviously lack of response to this area in the church as a whole.
I feel solid in this area as I had high aspirations of being a famous drummer, and was big into all the heavy hitters. I am not trying to create a campaign or anything, but I don't get it when Christians who ought to know better get offended when someone brings up true statements about Bono or whoever it is, and he is very obviously saying and doing things that bring forth corrupt fruit.
I would like to type more but that is enough said, I guess. I feel that while I am typing there is already going to be someone who is going to label me a legalist for saying these things. But in all honesty, if you do listen to secular music, which is not all bad, by the way, take an honest look at the message they are saying with their words and with their lives and ask yourself if listening to them would grieve the Spirit and make your brother stumble.
| 2006/11/18 21:46||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Below the surface|
If there is anything at all that might be reinforced around here it would be, do not judge a post by it's title...
Paul, thank you;
I meant to say that when one gains the mind of Christ, the charm, or allurement of these things vanish. There will always be unsaved people that will get their fill of these things. But, as for us, if we were as eternity-conscious as we should be, we would see the true vanity in it all.
I do appreciate all this! But I'm dead to it all. Can you understand?
Yes! Emphatically yes.
Even my job as a funeral director - I like my job, worked hard in school for it, but, alas, my heart isn't in it.
Thank God ... ;-) Not sure I would even want to imagine ... never mind. :-D Seriously, [i]this[/i] is very much the point towards all these things, there is something siting back of all of this that I could almost have wished for choosing my own words much more carefully. A lot of raw data throughout, pulled together randomly and a great deal left unsaid.
Quote: Ah, the [i]irony![/i]
I'm dead to my job.
I have no thrill in any of them. I just don't care, the adrenaline isn't there. It's gone. The only thing I love and read now is God's word.
If I may latch on to this, it is the same, Gods word through the saints, through the hearts of just men made 'perfect' (I.E. mostly [i]dead[/i] and read through Gods library ...).
Think what Paul is expressing here is the matter of the heart, not a superior, above it all temperament, how words can be misconstrued in these parts, even the ones trailing behind me giving off various reactions and mis-communications. There is something dull and null almost, spiritually speaking, to those things that A-muse as MC well pointed out back a few replies ... it's an [i]interior[/i] thing. Perhaps that's why there is often the reaction there is here towards too much ... emphasis on the matters , make that the entanglements of the world, recalling again;
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
It becomes less and less an injunction towards performance based obedience and more and more a settled, conviction of "I get it now", there is just no [i]life[/i] in so much of these things. I am not really sure this 'preaches' well, to hear it is one thing, to have it enter into your heart of hearts and become ... your modus operandi, quite another. Brother, I don't care either anymore and paradoxically I do care greatly about far much greater matters, those inward attributes of honesty, spirit and truth, the development process and character attributes... [i]making disciples[/i] as a disciple and learner.
And the field keeps getting larger, not smaller, more vast an awe inspiring, the very substance ... Still have residing Ravenhill's simple little quote, even in his later years after so much ... [i]life[/i] poured out into Gods service that, "I know next to nothing" (paraphrased). Great emphatic truth!
It gets to a truth of "take it or leave it" ... Ah, that's poor... the emphasis on the later, bluntly speaking it might be, "Nah" not in the negative connotation, [i]can't be bothered[/i] again without the drain of human understanding. My am I struggling here to get this out ...
Paul is elucidating a very important truth of what has us and that which does not. Fasting. What is it but a denial, of the flesh? Not all fasting must need be of food. Experience has shown that an absence, a setting aside, a letting go, a giving over to the Lord ones life means a great deal more than we may aspire to or recognize. It gets very, deeply, personal; "Others may, you cannot", that doesn't set you up as superior or more saintly, it is the root of; "What is that to you, you follow [i]Me[/i]". Have learned that being away from many things for prolonged seasons, to come back and [i]look[/i] upon them is to see them for what they are worth, with new eyes and a different perspective. Abstinence is powerful, think this is far more the ... defining of 'being dead to it all'. It injects a Holy "perhaps" into things, less concerned about being 'right' and far more [i]being[/i] rightly disposed in our makeup and intentions, the redesigning of the disposition that only the Lord can and must do. Contentment slowly, but surely takes place those things that used to hold sway over us and our fickle, flighty emotions. Being humble is a result more than an attribute to be ... crafted ... though it is that to an extent. Practice and imitation, d i s i p l i n e and maybe the greatest of all ...
Suffering. We must learn to suffer some things, many things, it is good for us, it is the way the Lord walked, it is the way of the cross, it seems to be turning out to be less of something we ought to do or is ... Has man or the devil himself made this [i]optional[/i]? In our day? It is the [i]only[/i] way, there is just no getting around it. The Lord did say His burden was light, His yoke was easy and so it is of a truth. And the cross is still painful to every human squealing of quivering flesh ... the spiritual sword that must go through our innermost evils that are buried under mountains of flesh, years of training, the contagion of the world, the allurement of the eyes, pride of life .....
A departure to so called eloquence and seemingly abstract notions here, but all this dying to self is ... Wonderful! Truly it is, it is all the difference in the world to be able to say "I don't care" in the right sense of the word, 'it just doesn't matter' is often the guttural instinct and prayer, only that which God wills is of any import. To say that and mean it ... there is a joining of the two and I am telling you it is by far the greatest thing in life and the life to come, for all eternity. It is great contentment and peace, something that can be tasted here and now. It makes for endurance and enduring saints, [i]no matter what[/i] the particular circumstances, no matter if one was "shipped up the Amazon" or sent to cleanse the wounds of a leper, placed in the corporate world or digging ditches. What difference does it make? You [i]could[/i] and [i]can[/i] be made to be content anywhere at anytime and in all circumstances. It's amazingly incredible and perplexing wonderful. Having great expectations of what the Lord will do is not spurious, it is if we get on the wrong side of James admonishen;
[i]Come now, those saying, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city and spend a year there, and we will trade and will make a profit, who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears. Instead of you saying, If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that. But now you boast in your presumptions. All such boasting is evil.[/i] Jam 4:13-16 MKJV
Living proof of these things. A handful of years back now, even the last 2 years has seen things change so much ... It's dumbfounding. If there is any particular 'secret' to it all ...
Two profound items that my mother would back me to the hilt on, I had little of neither. And so now am I full? Well, lets just honestly admit I am full of a lot things ... Progress is measured by the Architect in our understanding.
Some things are just plain arbitrary, some things have all kinds of subtle attachments, lurking evils, Chambers noted something we may be reluctant to admit to; That God guards us from a great deal that we do not understand and if we are wise enough we won't bother to peer into things that are none of our business. Things below the conscience level, we will [i]never[/i] fully understand ourselves and as he well put it, neither of us would be worth understanding if we could ... that's muddled, maybe it's the attempt at understanding. Getting off track here.
The things that grow dim do so by contrast with a greater Light. Jesus. Ever [i]wonder[/i], just wonder about Him? How impossible it is that some mere man, mere men could have attributed so much to him be just fairy tales, overstated accounting, all the things the world wants to make Him to be? "A good teacher" and all that rubbish and nonsense. Oh it is the height of simplicity to state this for seasoned saints, we [i]know[/i] Him is varying degrees, in development and understanding as He reveals Himself to us, in us ... amazing truth! The new birth ... Everyday is a new design and opportunity for greater understanding. Recognize where we are in this peculiar time\space continuum?
[i]W o n d e r [/i]. I am telling you, it is this that we have lost in our day, replacing it with a muddy mixture of confusion and [i]alternatives[/i], all sorts of marrying things and merging philosophies ... Paul is right, it is dung! And one doesn't have to misconstrue that to recognize the vast ... replacement that is waiting for those who would just lay hold of it, though He slay me, though He put you through the gears of this worlds screwed up, [i]now[/i], everything [i]now[/i], instant, convenient, microwaved ... delayed gratification? How absurd!
Something better saints, something far and away better.
| 2006/11/19 8:48||Profile|
Thank you for sifting through all the muck and verbosity to find the core of what I've been trying to express. You see it, and I really need to work on expressing myself in a more direct, yet unprovocative manner. Too much of what I say on this thing is misconstrued. It can get frustrating! The last thing I want is my brothers thinking I'm some superior, holier-than-thou, blind zealot with his head in the clouds while the earth perishes. Oh no, no, no - not so! Death to the carnal man means life to the spirit man, and the spirit man accomplishes God's will. I just want to do the work God has given me on this planet, to be a good and faithful servant in all the possible ways I can, to bring the glorious knowledge of Christ and rescue the perishing and meet the needs of both the physically and spiritually impoverished. But, alas, for the child of God to radiate the life and light of Christ to the world, he must first be dead to the world and all it contains. Ah, the paradox, the wisdom, the unsearchable glory of God's ways.
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/11/19 9:35||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Had to backtrack to this, well do I remember these words;
"What you own is your own kingdom, What you do is your own glory, What you love is your own power, What you live is your own story, In your head is the answer, Let it guide you along..."
It is the worlds philosophy without a doubt and yet interesting how we perceive and sort through things.
I am not trying to create a campaign or anything, but I don't get it when Christians who ought to know better get offended when someone brings up true statements about Bono or whoever it is, and he is very obviously saying and doing things that bring forth corrupt fruit.
Think this can be something of a misnomer, there is a dividing between that which is spoken and laying attributes and motivations to the creatures that uttered them. Where we can get into all kinds of trouble is in our laying on of assumptions, departing into character traits and ...[i]climbing into peoples heads[/i], we are overstepping the bounds so to speak. Sure, we can glean much and times where it is obvious enough what is stated is a particular [i]fruit[/i]...
Guess I am only attempting here to dislodge some of the same presumptions of insinuating one way or the other amongst ourselves. Think this particular thread is tremendous, not controversial at all. Really there isn't all that much 'supporting' of 'worldly' constructs, more a taking apart of it all, looking at it, dissecting it ... What's the alternative? What's the worth of it? Asking and answering questions, finding it really very productive and opening up our channels of honesty ... How we got from [i]there[/i] to [i]here[/i]... Fascinating to me that there is that many of us who have come through this particular way, does the Lord have some particular ... penchant for plucking out specimens to make examples of, from of all things ... [i]The devils music[/i]? ;-)
Sounds about right. :-D
(Side note: Going back to the Rush lyrics ... a great deal of truth in there, [i]IF[/i] your head has been exchanged. Strange, that always sat funny with me, those lines... that sense of, 'this can't possibly be right', my head frightens me... still does :-) )
| 2006/11/19 9:43||Profile|
| Re: Suffering|
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Suffering. We must learn to suffer some things, many things, it is good for us, it is the way the Lord walked, it is the way of the cross, it seems to be turning out to be less of something we ought to do or is ... Has man or the devil himself made this optional? In our day? It is the only way, there is just no getting around it. The Lord did say His burden was light, His yoke was easy and so it is of a truth. And the cross is still painful to every human squealing of quivering flesh ... the spiritual sword that must go through our innermost evils that are buried under mountains of flesh, years of training, the contagion of the world, the allurement of the eyes, pride of life .....
stirred up some thoughts here, nah, emotions really, the Christian life is a busy life, busy suffering, within and without, from the wiles of satan, the persecutions of this world, the misunderstanding of brethren, from our own sinfulness, the sins of loved ones, very much every bit of what the apostle Paul had laid out in his letters if not more..can't keep up sometimes..
well time to worship..let me join all of God's in spirit wherever you/they are
just thought of one way to overcome suffering, how bout sacrifice of praises..
"this is the day,this is the day which the Lord has made, we will rejoice, we will rejoice and be glad in it.." can y'all hear the children singing this? let's join them..
| 2006/11/19 10:12||Profile|
| Brother Paul---contrition from me|
I do apologize to you for saying that your zeal has blinded you.
That was wrong and rash of me, and I have been thinking and praying over it all night and all this morning, and from the second I left this computer, last night, God the Holy Ghost convicted me of this rash statement and for that I repent and ask your forgiveness.
We all have our own walk in Christ, and they are unique, and not uniform, and I love you in the Lord and in my soul, though I have never seen, nor spoken to you. Doesn't matter.
When one becomes one with Christ, love is without agenda, thats the way I feel about you.
You say tomahtto, I say tomato, big deal, all I know is this: we both love Jesus, we both follow Jesus, and He is all we need.
Please know my heart, for I am sorry for rash words. "I was blind, now I can see".
a holy kiss to you, neil
| 2006/11/19 12:09|
| Re: matt|
Zealousness will only become self righteousness if you let your zeal outgrow your growth in grace.
I did a study on psalm 119 and how our "way" is cleansed by God's word.
cannot agree more, always hope to study Ps119 with some contemporary saints, blessed!
| 2006/11/19 12:50||Profile|