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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Hi Diane,

Quote:
Is it the Jesus- way?



I don't really think it is, and evidently I seem to be in a large [i]minority[/i] with these convictions. I mean, you do an internet search and this guy's teachings on financial wisdom are all the rave. Multitudes of churches are hosting his seminar, and I know a church that has just recently joined the bandwagon (okay, I can't be cryptic any more - it's [i]my[/i] church!) I just can't imagine Spurgeon hosting something like this, or Wesley cracking goofy jokes and teaching people who are disobedient to the Word of God how to amass wealth and live the American dream, debt-free. It's not right, I believe, and is yet another blatant indicator of the sad, sad state of the church today. Ten churches in my little city alone are hosting this how-to-get-out-of-debt-and-be-wealthy stuff; I wonder how many other churches in Dallas, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Santa Fe?

I'm perplexed. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for wisdom and good stewardship over finances, but I just can't put my thumb on why this doesn't sit right. Is anyone familiar with his "Financial Peace University" program?

I also heard (in defense of these types of Christian money-management programs) that Jesus taught more about money than any other topic in the NT - more than prayer, hell, heaven, holiness, etc. Money, and the management thereof. Hosea 4:6 was also used to show that God's children need to acquire "financial" wisdom so as to not be destroyed. I always thought that that verse had to do with knowledge of the law.

I do not want to make a mistake of being overly critical with this. I have already said enough. Some humble feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/5 20:42Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

For what it's worth, whever I am listening to Christian radio and I hear one of these money-ministries start thier marketing spiel... I find myself reaching for the dial everytime before they get to that part where they tell us:"There are more verses in the bible about money then any other topic. Over 2, 345 verses...obviously Jesus felt money was important. Call our ministry and we'll blah blah..."

I can tell you, if I wanted sound financial advice I would get it from a professional friend or at least a friend I knew was competent in these matters. True learning from others in areas of finance or business takes years with a trusted mentor and example...not some 'power packed' weekend course.

If our church was hosting a trade show for some Christian business thinly designed as a ministry I can tell you I would stay home that night.

My 2 cents of financial contribution here ;-)

(Can I get a write-off?)

MC

(Krispy...in case you're just returning to discover what we've done with your thread...well I can't think of a good excuse! You know how we are here!:-P)


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 20:53Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
There are more verses in the bible about money then any other topic. Over 2, 345 verses...obviously Jesus felt money was important



This makes my blood boil. How can people be so naive? A person who would actually sit and count all the "money-related" verses in the Bible obviously has some serious spiritual issues. I find it striking that you never, [i]ever[/i] see this stuff addressed in Puritanical writings - that Jesus taught more about money than anything else, and use it to tie in how we can all be materialistically wealthy [i]God's way.[/i]

I hate this stuff. It's just so rotten, so fleshly. Where, O where is true holiness today? Where the Christian delights and finds the greatest satisfaction [i]in giving his extra money away to missions, to the poor, to feed and clothe the naked and hungry?[/i]

I believe that all the wisdom a Christian needs for amassing true earthly wealth and gaining spiritual treasure beyond silver and gold is found in the Book of Proverbs (for free!) - call me old-fashioned!

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/5 21:12Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: just another chunk out of the old apple

Quote:
some humble feedback would be greatly appreciated!



I have no clue about this program, but my concern regarding many methods is that they merely offer another chunk out of the “apple” in the Garden. If your “eat” this you can be your own god. You can manage your own life better than you could before, and get along quite well without God.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/11/5 21:16Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I'm with you Paul. Good point about the Puritans.

I would say that different businesses may require us to learn different levels of "technical" competence in banking mechanisms and best accounting practices, but in regards to finding out God's standard for our character and wisdom in business, I agree with your proverbs assesment completely.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 21:21Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
(Krispy...in case you're just returning to discover what we've done with your thread...well I can't think of a good excuse! You know how we are here!



Hey, knowing Krispy, he's going to have quite alot to say about this too! I sure am looking forward to his thoughts! I think it was Ormly's Hallo-weenie roast post that inspired me.

Brother Paul 8-)


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/5 21:30Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

All,

I just appreciated being able to chat in a light-hearted way this evening...Thanks.


Regarding the subject of music I wanted to bring up another unique singer that I came across recently....
[url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000AA3SAE/ref=ed_mus_6x_matis]Matisyahu[/url] is contemporary but not exactly Christian...He's Hasidic Jewish! Normally I wouldn't be that drawn to Hassidic Hip Hop Reggae :-) but I found his Talmudic infused music very endearing.

There is something touching about hearing this guy sing Jerusalem, if I forget about you, let my right hand forget what it's supposed to do.

File under 'culturally interesting."

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 22:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Hi Diane,

Quote:
Is it the Jesus- way?



I don't really think it is, and evidently I seem to be in a large [i]minority[/i] with these convictions. I mean, you do an internet search and this guy's teachings on financial wisdom are all the rave. Multitudes of churches are hosting his seminar, and I know a church that has just recently joined the bandwagon (okay, I can't be cryptic any more - it's [i]my[/i] church!) I just can't imagine Spurgeon hosting something like this, or Wesley cracking goofy jokes and teaching people who are disobedient to the Word of God how to amass wealth and live the American dream, debt-free. It's not right, I believe, and is yet another blatant indicator of the sad, sad state of the church today. Ten churches in my little city alone are hosting this how-to-get-out-of-debt-and-be-wealthy stuff; I wonder how many other churches in Dallas, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Santa Fe?

I'm perplexed. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for wisdom and good stewardship over finances, but I just can't put my thumb on why this doesn't sit right. Is anyone familiar with his "Financial Peace University" program?

I also heard (in defense of these types of Christian money-management programs) that Jesus taught more about money than any other topic in the NT - more than prayer, hell, heaven, holiness, etc. Money, and the management thereof. Hosea 4:6 was also used to show that God's children need to acquire "financial" wisdom so as to not be destroyed. I always thought that that verse had to do with knowledge of the law.

I do not want to make a mistake of being overly critical with this. I have already said enough. Some humble feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Brother Paul




You aren't being overly critical, however, what isn't being onserved in this whole thing is why Jesus was mentioning money and the love of it to be a big problem. In one word, Satan. If he can get us to substitude out the love of God for the love of money, he wins; God vs mammon. Satan's tool is obvious, the lust of the eye and "necessities" of life. Debt binds you to him. "Owe no man anything" holds much to be reasoned that we take too lightly especially when we have the means to pay back OVER TIME. Debt obligates but satisfies lust that says, "I must have it now".

What is needed is preaching that speaks against debt for spiritual reasons more than the obvious obligatory death sentence of financial pay back. If it becomes too much to pay back what are our solutions to the problem? Ah, Satan loves what they are.: Bankruptcy, skating, abandonment[s], lying, cheating, the "lootery", more borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, etc, adnausm. All of this designed to rob one of God's intention for us. Of course, the absence of elementary teaching concerning Jesus Christ and the "why" of Him, and the actualized born again life to make this a concern to one's heart, is also absent from the the preaching. "Choose you this day" should be explained more fully as to the consequences of wrongly choosing with the attitude of presumption.

Reasoning, a Tale of it’s Progress in Five Chapters ---- for the lustful who hopefully become un-lustful.


Chapter 1

I walk down the street ---- there’s a deep hole in the sidewalk ---- I fall in!-- I’m lost! I’m helpless! ---- It isn’t my fault! ---- It takes forever to find my way out.

Chapter 2

I walk down the same street ---- there’s a DEEP HOLE in the sidewalk -
-- I pretend I don’t see it --- I FALL IN AGAIN -- I CAN’T BELIEVE I’m in the SAME place! --- but it’s not MY fault!--- it still takes a LONG time to get out.

Chapter 3

I walk down the SAME street --- there’s deep hole in the sidewalk --- I SEE that it is there --- I still fall in --- it’s become a habit --- my eyes are open ——— I know where I am ——— it’s my fault ——— I get out immediately!

Chapter 4

I walk down the same street --- there’s a deep hole the sidewalk --- I walk around it.

Chapter 5

I walk down another street.

THE END

Now if Satan can disguise the hole in the ground, hmmm, I wonder, the music?

Hebrews 5:14 (KJV)
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


2 Tim. 2:26 (KJV)
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.




 2006/11/6 8:09









 Re:

Quote:
Hey, knowing Krispy, he's going to have quite alot to say about this too! I sure am looking forward to his thoughts! I think it was Ormly's Hallo-weenie roast post that inspired me.



Yea... this thread has been successfully hi-jacked! Chase that rabbit, boys!! :-o

Krispy

 2006/11/6 9:00
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Ormly, the five Chapters aught to supplement the four spiritual laws! It sure gets one thinking. Does this come in pamphlet form?

Quote:
but it’s not MY fault!” …. [to]……… “it’s my fault


In other words, repentance begins when the victim assumes responsibility.

Quote:
Now if Satan can disguise the hole in the ground, hmmm, I wonder, the music?

I might add that any kind of music can become a tool of Satan – a temptation that keeps life in the hole more bearable. That could include (yes) even our beloved hymns, or whatever we cherish so dearly. The love of music can subtly replace the love of God.

Thankfully, God implements ways of testing our loves, and ingeniously exposes our rival loves – be it money or music. (Guess how I know?)

It's not our job as music providers in church to use music simply to enhance the hole-life; and yet we can't stop it from happening.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/11/6 9:08Profile





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