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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I wanted to add another name to my earlier list of modern serious music composers that I think Kerry Livgren would find as a welcome exception to his justifiable concern.

Henryk Gorecki is a Polish composer who has found some measure of popular acceptance even though his music is known as an expression of his country's misery in the 20th century. The first movement from [url=http://www.amazon.com/Henryk-Gorecki-Symphony-Sorrowful-Songs/dp/B000005J1C/ref=cm_sylt_fullview_prod_37/103-6582526-8001432/103-6582526-8001432]Symphony 3 "Sorrowful Songs"[/url] has no words, but is one of the most prayer-like intonation of sadness and hope I have ever heard. Great soundtrack for reading the Psalms or Lamentations...

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 2:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Well, not true, really, 'cause it was worn inappropriately. As in, out of place, not in the proper fashion. Not according to the rules that were set before him, which is what got him into the mess he's at this point getting out of, anyway.



What rules. What fashion?

Quote:
And the point was that what one saw as holy, another scorned (and, as the story goes, became barren.) We know what was right, because the past is apparently much easier to read than the present or future. And David was supposed to be the one doing proper things, which is a bit along the side of ludicrous.



.....that is according to man's reasoning, or yours..

Quote:
But how alike it is to what we are discussing, no? Nothing on the modern music? I'm a bit shocked. Quite honestly, as for your expecting others to be able to read your veiled comments, I'm surprised you couldn't draw that conclusion.



Sorry, but I don't get your point. In regards to Krispy, I really have no argument with Him. I agree with what he wrote, i.e., music is degenerating both in the secular realm and spiritual realm. That is something I saw many years ago. Those of God are now coming around to see it also.

Re David: Michal scorned him because he danced and, in her opinion, looked foolish. That's what is pointed out to be the issue. David, a King, rejoiced before the Lord as a child who loves his father would do. He was a man after God's own heart, not inhibited by what man might think of him.

 2006/11/5 6:57
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re:

Quote:
What rules. What fashion?


According to Exodus 28, the ephod was fashioned for Aaron and his sons, as a concecrated item. David was a king, not a priest. Broken rule.
Quote:
.....that is according to man's reasoning, or yours..


Ah, the logic! The bible is interpreted on all accounts, and spoken of, with the reasoning of man! Ever it is so, and to a great extent the Gospels prove it. Christ was not kind to the holy men who interpreted scripture according to holy standards, and they ever thought it to be done right. It is also refuted with the reasoning of man, and this is a cop-out answer (if ever there was one) because, quite honestly, you are but a man as well. I can give you a good number of scriptures where David made horrendous mistakes and their scriptural proof if you would like, the first of which will be him moving the Ark on a cart drawn by oxen to lead into this whole event. If that be man's reasoning, then I am sorely at fault.

Quote:
Re David: Michal scorned him because he danced and, in her opinion, looked foolish. That's what is pointed out to be the issue. David, a King, rejoiced before the Lord as a child who loves his father would do. He was a man after God's own heart, not inhibited by what man might think of him.

David was a polygamist and a sulker. His psalms are often bitter, and present such a quality as we would call melodramatic, trivialize, and even disapprove of today. But they are in the bible, and above reproach. And he was...
Quote:
a man after God's own heart, not inhibited by what man might think of him...

...which is something we are so most definitely not supposed to do here. I'm pretty sure Michal wasn't the only one who thought him foolish, and I'd bet I'm not the only person to note his liberal use of the ephod.

Quote:
Sorry, but I don't get your point. In regards to Krispy, I really have no argument with Him.


Well, I guess I overstepped my bounds, here. Having reread some of your posts, I must admit you did acknowledge this aspect of it. But I guess you just don't believe he took the whole thing far enough. Of course, you were constantly comparing his words with bands like the Rolling Stones, which for all appearances is a bit of an assumption, and is probably where my sentiment came from. Yet you also called him an antinomanist for reasoning on a common thread - which was loosely linked to the whole subject - because of diction. Not inappropriate diction, either. But again, I did overstep my bounds, and I appologize.



Aye, does anyone agree with my somewhat hidden point, that we hear more a kind of musical poetry, and not music proper?


_________________
David Reynolds

 2006/11/5 10:43Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi PTywama3,

Quote:
does anyone agree with my somewhat hidden point, that we hear more a kind of musical poetry, and not music proper?



Could you give an example of each for comparison?

Thanks,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 10:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
According to Exodus 28, the ephod was fashioned for Aaron and his sons, as a concecrated item. David was a king, not a priest. Broken rule.



Nor was he ministering unto the Lord but rejoicing in Him.

The wearing of Linen was a requirement for entering the most Holy place by the priest' who were the only ones allowed to enter. It was never intended nor restricted for anything else, in the Lord. Outside that requirement that the priest MUST wear it for entrance, David violated nothing by wearing it as he danced in rejoicing, before the Lord. He was not being presumptous for which he later was rebuked for being so by his head counting.

David was a man after God's own Heart. Perhaps you might enlighten me and others as to why you believe that to be a true considering your objections to what you would have one believe, by your words, to the contrary.

 2006/11/5 12:38
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re:

To Ormly,

I think you're missing the point. David was mixing messages. He sacrificed before the ark as he moved it, and there is no reason to assume he was not acting as a priest in such regards. He then paraded in open ground about in front of the ark as it was moved into the city. He was acting as priest, and was not in a proper place to do so. In such regard, he was using the ephod liberally. Maybe not unjustly, but liberally, and against common custom. The ephod wasn't used to enter the most Holy place; for there were breeches fashioned for such just to cover the priest's nakedness. The ephod was for their entrance and exit from the Holy place, i.e. the tent's first inner chamber.

I never said David wasn't a man after God's own heart, as I so often hear otherwise, but that he was a man who made a great many mistakes (or intentionally broke rules) in regards to written tradition and law. Holiness in place of lawfulness?

To Compton,

A musical poet - say Relient K or Brad Paisley...

"Music proper" - John Williams, his soundtracks for so many different things, Glenn Miller's compositions, Howard Shore's works in The Lord of the Rings...

Generally,

I don't know of any mainstream modern poets. A basic poetic form is noticeable in modern music. Now it seems we have an abundance of novelists and singers, but not many poets of the pen.

It might be easier to liken this particular "music" to "song," and call the "artists" "minstrels1" or "troubadors1." Minstrels were accustomed to song, but their style was bent more on words than music. We just have an exceeding number of them. And a skilled minstrel is still a minstrel. Minstrels were generally regarded as poets. Much of this debate is (as always) based on diction, and the common man's (our predecessors and what our politicians strive to emulate) emphasis on simplification. It seems to have always been thus.

Here, too, technology is a bear, because it has made acquiring the essentials for "artistry" so much easier. No longer is it a thing solely for the determined, but is also available most quietly to the persistent in an affordable fashion. Fortunately for myself, I don't always see this as a bad thing.

There are a dutiful number of composers still out there, most of them (as always) still writing as accompaniment to entertainment (be it to smalltalk, dancing, or to movies/plays.)

I also don't think it fair to assume a change in musical pattern so often as we would like. We had one, with the ushering of the big band and jazz era. Usually they take a century or better to work out.
...............................

I should write a disclaimer as a signature, suggesting my masculine phrasing is often intended for reference to race, and not gender. Hope that works for this post.

1. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1). Retrieved November 05, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com


_________________
David Reynolds

 2006/11/5 15:31Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Thanks PT,

I'm sure there are several that I am not aware of but I have always found Michael Card to fit the description you gave. In fact he not only ties poetry and storytelling together well in his song writing, but also rich theology.

Quote:
Here, too, technology is a bear, because it has made acquiring the essentials for "artistry" so much easier



It seems every budding musician has their own midi seqencer and protools studio these days. Craft is replaced with software. Some say that digital technology has democratized the arts, but this leveling of the field has also diluted the standards for artmanship.

In other words, everyone with nothing to say is now saying it. ;-)

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 16:08Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Just a brief insert here...

I was getting a quick cup of coffee from our local shop when I noticed a flier from a church youth group advertising a Christian Rock concert.

Beneath the headline and color copy photo of some young thrashers there was the tongue in cheek text...

"Warning: May cause loss of hearing."

Just a light-hearted joke I know, but I couldn't help but notice the spiritual contrast to this...

"Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped"

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/5 17:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I think you're missing the point. David was mixing messages. He sacrificed before the ark as he moved it, and there is no reason to assume he was not acting as a priest in such regards. He then paraded in open ground about in front of the ark as it was moved into the city. He was acting as priest, and was not in a proper place to do so. In such regard, he was using the ephod liberally. Maybe not unjustly, but liberally, and against common custom. The ephod wasn't used to enter the most Holy place; for there were breeches fashioned for such just to cover the priest's nakedness. The ephod was for their entrance and exit from the Holy place, i.e. the tent's first inner chamber.




I stand corrected. I was thinking too much all things linen and was not careful to make proper distinctions.

Having said that and fully realizing in his life as king, David made many mistakes in judgment, where is this instant was the rebuke from God, assuming of course one should have been forthcoming? Since none came we can assume David was not out of order especially considering how he was handled by God because other disobediences?

No, in this, I see him as both King and Priest, a type of Christ with all the reason to justify what would seem to be presumption.




 2006/11/5 17:13









 Re:


Whatta think of this one for a church halloween thing for young people?

"Only three days left until our Holy Ghost Weenie Roast! All youth and adults who have signed up to help with the games, we would like to have your help in decorating the rooms at 4:00 p.m. on Saturday. It will be a fun time, and will get us into the mood for the fun-filled evening! We look forward to seeing you soon!"

 2006/11/5 17:33





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