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 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ok... in the spirit of trying to come to an understanding... where do you think I am veering off course here? Is there something wrong with putting on some classical music, or perhaps some jazz music, and simply sitting in surround-sound and enjoying the music? What am I missing here?

A cautionary note. If the music is Christian what are you looking for when listening --- good sounds or something that takes you in your heart to Christ? Does the music allow that or are the sounds such that you can't hear anything but the guy on the drums or the distorted guitar? I call that inhibiting.

Quote:
And where in all of this have I suggested that we forsake holiness, and justify doing so?

Krispy


You haven't --- however, I haven't read where you recognize that the "little foxes" are eating the vine. What are little foxes except man's reasoning being let in to spoil the unction of the Holy Spirit. Ever hear the word dissimulation? A very subtle happening that inhibits sincere worship and needs an excuse to continue; a dripping allowed by the unlearned or disobedient leadership permiting the uncommitted/unrepentent to participate in ministry with the hope of "bringing them to Jesus" through involvement. Thats wrong and we haven't converted them. They have converted us. The church is full up with the music of the world that Father can't allow in to His Holy presence. Ergo, it's worthless as in evil.

Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Orm





 2006/11/4 11:26









 Re:

Quote:
A cautionary note. If the music is Christian what are you looking for when listening --- good sounds or something that takes you in your heart to Christ? Does the music allow that or are the sounds such that you can't hear anything but the guy on the drums or the distorted guitar? I call that inhibiting.



Who's to say that enjoying good music just because it's good isnt drawing close to God? He is a creative God... look around you. All good gifts come from above. Drums and guitars... a symphony... matters not to me. Both are capable of creating good music... and bad music. Styles is not an issue with me. If it is with you, than I chalk that up to personal tastes. Too many people confuse preferences for convictions.

Quote:
You haven't --- however, I haven't read where you recognize that the "little foxes" are eating the vine.



Hmmm... you might start by reviewing the over 2,300 posts I've made to this site... you rookie, you. :-) Others have, and thats why they have come to my defense concerning your impression that I care not for holiness.

(You're barking up the wrong tree)

Krispy

 2006/11/4 12:04
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: all those foxes

Quote:
the "little foxes" are eating the vine.


Ormly, You certainly express a genuine concern. It also seems that you are much more hopeful that me. To me the “little foxes” have already eaten much of the vine. I'm not sure how much we can fix by trying to catch up with all the foxes now that the damage is done.

Meanwhile, the big lions are prowling around, garbed in angelic robes, “qualifications”, convincing evangelical lingo…. and the henhouse door is opened wide to them by those who run our institutions. That's outside of our control. We who scratch near the ground, are not the "powers-that-be regarding the most serious issues.

In fact, our measly attempts to catch foxes reminds me of the law enforcers who go after the teen who steels a chocolate bar from the corner store, while the institutionalized banks are robbing millions of dollars from the population - all “sanctified” by government. (not to discredit the need to enforce civil law!)

Now if I were God, I’d pull the plug on it all, shut the whole thing down, maybe just work with house churches. (Of course, then you’d never hear great organs with mass congregations singing Bach or Fanny Crosby.)

Shutdown day may come via persecution. Or our churches may become merely pawns for government. Meanwhile, we work with the hand of clay God has assigned us - in our existing historical moment.

We continue to draw near to him and let him work in our own lives. That’s the best way to make any impact. I optimistically believe that there are many musicians or other who are doing just that in our churches.

I will continue to be blessed by great expressions of music, and will give glory to God for the endowment he has given mankind. I will do my part, as he leads, in working with others, both saved and unsaved in creating quality music in the communities and churches.

And I trust that a few flickers of Light will shine through the cracks.

(For me, it's not worth getting in knots over the masses who crave their bubble-gum music.)

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/11/4 13:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
A cautionary note. If the music is Christian what are you looking for when listening --- good sounds or something that takes you in your heart to Christ? Does the music allow that or are the sounds such that you can't hear anything but the guy on the drums or the distorted guitar? I call that inhibiting.



Who's to say that enjoying good music just because it's good isnt drawing close to God? He is a creative God... look around you. All good gifts come from above. Drums and guitars... a symphony... matters not to me. Both are capable of creating good music... and bad music. Styles is not an issue with me. If it is with you, than I chalk that up to personal tastes. Too many people confuse preferences for convictions.

Quote:
You haven't --- however, I haven't read where you recognize that the "little foxes" are eating the vine.



Hmmm... you might start by reviewing the over 2,300 posts I've made to this site... you rookie, you. :-) Others have, and thats why they have come to my defense concerning your impression that I care not for holiness.

(You're barking up the wrong tree)

Krispy



What pleases God is the issue. Are you prepared to say that your indifference to this matter of music presented Him is ok with Him?

 2006/11/4 13:53









 Re:

Quote:
What pleases God is the issue. Are you prepared to say that your indifference to this matter of music presented Him is ok with Him?



Like I said... try getting to know me before you paint me indifferent to the things of God. Thats just rediculous, and you should know better by now. You've been here long enough.

I'm gonna stop this back and forth with you because it appears that you just want to argue. I have better things to do with my time.

Love ya, bro...

Krispy

 2006/11/4 13:59









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
the "little foxes" are eating the vine.


Ormly, You certainly express a genuine concern. It also seems that you are much more hopeful that me. To me the “little foxes” have already eaten much of the vine. I'm not sure how much we can fix by trying to catch up with all the foxes now that the damage is done.

Meanwhile, the big lions are prowling around, garbed in angelic robes, “qualifications”, convincing evangelical lingo…. and the henhouse door is opened wide to them by those who run our institutions. That's outside of our control. We who scratch near the ground, are not the "powers-that-be regarding the most serious issues.

In fact, our measly attempts to catch foxes reminds me of the law enforcers who go after the teen who steels a chocolate bar from the corner store, while the institutionalized banks are robbing millions of dollars from the population - all “sanctified” by government. (not to discredit the need to enforce civil law!)

Now if I were God, I’d pull the plug on it all, shut the whole thing down, maybe just work with house churches. (Of course, then you’d never hear great organs with mass congregations singing Bach or Fanny Crosby.)

Shutdown day may come via persecution. Or our churches may become merely pawns for government. Meanwhile, we work with the hand of clay God has assigned us - in our existing historical moment.

We continue to draw near to him and let him work in our own lives. That’s the best way to make any impact. I optimistically believe that there are many musicians or other who are doing just that in our churches.

I will continue to be blessed by great expressions of music, and will give glory to God for the endowment he has given mankind. I will do my part, as he leads, in creating quality music in the communities and churches. And I trust that a few flickers of Light will shine through the cracks.

For me, it's not worth getting in knots over the masses who crave their bubble-gum music.

Diane




Indeed, Diane. Its the toleration of the mixture that should be noted as the handicap we face and have to submit to if we are to "get along", not in the name of Christ but in the name of unity and consideration for the seeker who will only remain if his/hers self-satisfying sensibilties are placated. Sad that "purpose driven" leadership believes whatever the success in this is of a God ordained Spirit of Christ. What delusion to believe a spiked-haired rock band can do for the church that which Christ can only do. No, it won't go back into the bottle.
We, who understand what the issues are, must just continue to speak against the prevailing Nicolaitane thinking and let it fall where it will with the hope that some will be rescued. Jesus came with a sword in His hand. Cutting hurts and the cutting must begin in the house of God. What post modern church will embrace this? Few at best and one that I can think of.


Orm

 2006/11/4 14:25









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
What pleases God is the issue. Are you prepared to say that your indifference to this matter of music presented Him is ok with Him?



Like I said... try getting to know me before you paint me indifferent to the things of God. Thats just rediculous, and you should know better by now. You've been here long enough.

I'm gonna stop this back and forth with you because it appears that you just want to argue. I have better things to do with my time.

Love ya, bro...

Krispy



My point is to make one, not to argue. Regretable you see it as me arguing just to argue. I desire that all would see the subtley of it all and how even the elect can be hoodwinked by well meaning Christian enterprize.

You might want to think about what I asked.

;-)

 2006/11/4 14:28
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re:

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.



Oh, my! Certainly not holy! Modern music? My Lord, and how inappropriately dressed!


_________________
David Reynolds

 2006/11/4 20:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PTywama3 wrote:
2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

Oh, my! Certainly not holy! Modern music? My Lord, and how inappropriately dressed!

To the contrary, the Linen ephod was representative of the Priestly garment of the Holy Spirit. Oh that we should have such intimacy with the Lord that we would dance in the Holy Spirit before Him.

 2006/11/4 20:10
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re: The Idea of Music

Krispy, I'm with ya all the way.

I've got me almost a decade in organised music (large scale) in which we did not actively promote the faith. We did play nifty little pieces like Ave Maria, but for the argument that its sacrilegious to a protestant... I already know.

For starters... let's look around.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Well, whad'ya know. God made birds. I'm not horribly sure if we're all aware, here, but a great many species of "fowl" use vocals (most specifically that of the male) in order to mate. Well, hold on! I think that might just mean that God intended for there to be a "music" in the world for as long as birds flew. Maybe God likes listening to music. 'Course birds aren't Christian. (sarcasm)

If you aren't aware, I'm being horribly sarcastic 'cause we missed Krispy's whole point in a damnably predictable fashion. God made the world, and a great many ideas in the "world" aren't really man's ideas at all... they're an adaption of what God intended. To love the world... well, I hate to say it, but I do. I'm an avid hiker, I love to watch the unsuspecting deer dash through the woods at my approach, to see the black bear sitting on the mountainside wondering whether or not my pack will be low enough to pillage later that night. I love to listen to the sound of the brook and the river at 3 AM, and I certainly marvel at the mountain peaks and the vantage points they offer. If that makes me sinful... well, I should blame God, 'cause he gave it to man to tender.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

And so I have, in my own small way. I have performed dutifully in making a sound as great and with greater emphasis than that of the mighty eagle! I can, with the use of my instrument, cry farther! And how it can be used to sing! Aye, but the appreciation for this modern music is not so bad for that poor bully blue jay, who sings a song so like the jays before him, but to which his memory has no value. Or to the robin he just pushed out of the way, more eloquent and with a prettier voice, but with the same darn story.

I mean, the abjection of ability is such a deterioration of the human race. The ascended man has no need of great musical talent. The extent of his voice should be the worship of God, in a humble fashion, so as not to bring notice to himself should others overhear him. (sarcasm)

Let's get back on point, in any regard. This is a spiritual site, with spiritual emphasis. Christians should regard music as an important, crucial thing. Yet we bicker because we don't like what we hear (pun intended, as well.) The point that Krispy and his post was trying to make was that music is deteriorating. Unfortunately, Ormly, you had to go and disagree so as to appear trying to be mightier than the formidable Krispy (regardless of your intent.) Also unfortunately, you both expressed the same point. Rather futile, even if you don't think so. Except you "slandered" him in the process. The only difference is you see unholiness rather than degradation - a bit like tunnel vision from an observer's standpoint. Sorry. As for all you music teachers, God bless you people! I know how I treated mine ;)

Music is a changing thing, in the western world. But we often fail to link things the way we should, or see causes. So maybe we could try to do that.

Why is music changing? Maybe a lot of it happened when we lost the modern poet. They dropped their pens and picked up microphones, and the whole darn thing cascaded - the words came first. There are still a few diligent souls out there with batons, but history isn't kind to innovation (especially musical innovation,) and I doubt it'll change on our dime. Most of your great composers struggled with their music, and (as especially true with the baroque period) came to be greatly admired quite often after their own deaths.

To switch tracks yet again, has anybody considered where we derive our musical taste in worship from? Even the hymns stem from a great many musical emphases whose originators were Christian only by birthright. The modern piano or guitar pieces rely pretty heavily on American folk... or the precursor country if you'd like to think of it that way. Even Hendrix gets in the mix. But alas, these things are holy. Just like Christmas. The concept that the ideas that bled them are unworthy of at least respect is a bit like saying that Adam should be sent to hell. It just doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to cover what is a commonly held viewpoint of misconception among musicians of the populace as a whole, and there is a great deal of ground to cover. Also, I work graveyard now, and my time of slumber is rapidly approaching (far too early.) As always, I know just about everyone is gonna want to disagree with me, because I often speak in riddles where plain words won't do justice. So if you need to ask a question, I'm hoping that Roadsign or KrispKritter will be gracious enough to try to pick them up (both obviously love music... a thing not to be taken lightly, as love and infatuation are entirely different subjects.) I'm also hoping both of you don't shake your head at me, but that's a chance I'm gonna have to take. :)



One last final point...

Quote:

To the contrary, the Linen ephod was representative of the Priestly garment of the Holy Spirit. Oh that we should have such intimacy with the Lord that we would dance in the Holy Spirit before Him.



Well, not true, really, 'cause it was worn inappropriately. As in, out of place, not in the proper fashion. Not according to the rules that were set before him, which is what got him into the mess he's at this point getting out of, anyway. And the point was that what one saw as holy, another scorned (and, as the story goes, became barren.) We know what was right, because the past is apparently much easier to read than the present or future. And David was supposed to be the one doing proper things, which is a bit along the side of ludicrous. But how alike it is to what we are discussing, no? Nothing on the modern music? I'm a bit shocked. Quite honestly, as for your expecting others to be able to read your veiled comments, I'm surprised you couldn't draw that conclusion.


_________________
David Reynolds

 2006/11/4 21:24Profile





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