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GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Brother Ormly,

Krispy and Diane are not Antinomian. I've read to many of their posts to think that of them. Just because one of them or someone else writes something that you don't agree with dose not mean that you should pull that word out of your pocket. You call me that and you might as well be cursing me.

In Christ,
GaryE


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2006/11/3 20:43Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Krispy and Roadsign's concern over the popular conception of 'annointing' is well founded. There may be a biblical precedent for 'the annointing' but today it is used as a distraction or even a substitute for being born again. Also the popular idea that certain men are 'annointed' of God for public ministry is really a reflection of the church's spiritual immaturity and lack of inward character.

Like I said, in our present age, the popular desire for the 'annointing' has replaced the rugged call "You must be born again!" In the least being born again into the image and likeness of Christ has been cheapened by our flash-pan annointings. For instance, Diane was talking about discipline and hard work...these are Christ-like character traits but most Christians today have mistrust and contempt for sweat...as if anything that does not supernaturally fall on a Christian is fleshly striving.

To tie all of this to music, consider the example of the hard working JS Bach. Nothing in modern western music escapes this man's shadow...and his achievement was no doubt tied to his radical faith in the newly rediscovered Gospel of the reformation. New scholarship reveals that even in the most private and almost secretly coded levels in his music composition, he worked hard to worship God with the talents entrusted to him. It did not seem to matter to him that all was not seen by "public" eyes.

Oh that we would believe that the spiritual man is not he who 'comes under the annointing" when in public ministry, but he who has the character and mind of Christ when no one is watching...such a man may not give us goosebumps but he pleases God.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/4 0:00Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: a servant ministry

Quote:
'the annointing' … today it is used as a distraction or even a substitute for being born again.



Really nothing has changed – just the lingo.

I remember in my youth (35 yrs ago) – no one could sing in the choir unless they were born again. That was a noble criterion, I admit. But even back then the criteria for being born again was fast slipping. Now, looking back, I can see that some (probably many) had asked the church into their hearts to be their savior (unconsciously, of course).

I can remember, as a music coordinator, being scolded for inviting singers who were “obviously” not born again, or who had done something bad 30 years ago in another town. (How was I supposed to know!!) Really the hidden self-talk went more like this: “They don’t seem like one of us.” or “They don’t sing in the style I expect (hymns and gospel-style)”. I felt that many-a worshipper missed the blessing of magnificent music, because they were so totally occupied with suspicious-laden character evaluation – wondering if the person really met the criteria of a “born-againer”.

That leads me to what has always been the touchy issue: Just who do we permit on the platform? Let’s admit, it is often almost impossible to distinguish the born- againers from the mimikers? In our pharisaic religious practise, we end up gravitating towards the mimikers.

I fear that still today the church creates a sub-culture, and then tries to keep THAT “pure”. And so the criteria for “only those who are anointed” comes to mean, “fit our expectations”. (Yes, even a contemporary Bach would never “fit” today.)

So how does one make decisions when placed in an un-ideal situation? Where I serve, if I attempted to exclude all who were likely not born again, I'd have no choir, and I would be turfed. God didn’t put me there to exclude all sinners, but to draw them towards the Light THROUGH the ministry of music. I have learned to let God guide me, and TRUST that he knows what he is doing.

I have some important criteria: ability, responsibility, and the absence of an obvious “I” in the middle of their forehead. A humble attitude, and respect for the sacred things of God creates an atmosphere where the Good News can be proclaimed, unhindered, through the message in song.

The platform (a human invention, by the way!) is not a place to show off how 'anointed' one is, but to wash people's dirty feet (in other words, serve).

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2006/11/4 8:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Krispy and Roadsign's concern over the popular conception of 'annointing' is well founded. There may be a biblical precedent for 'the annointing' but today it is used as a distraction or even a substitute for being born again. Also the popular idea that certain men are 'annointed' of God for public ministry is really a reflection of the church's spiritual immaturity and lack of inward character.

Like I said, in our present age, the popular desire for the 'annointing' has replaced the rugged call "You must be born again!" In the least being born again into the image and likeness of Christ has been cheapened by our flash-pan annointings. For instance, Diane was talking about discipline and hard work...these are Christ-like character traits but most Christians today have mistrust and contempt for sweat...as if anything that does not supernaturally fall on a Christian is fleshly striving.

To tie all of this to music, consider the example of the hard working JS Bach. Nothing in modern western music escapes this man's shadow...and his achievement was no doubt tied to his radical faith in the newly rediscovered Gospel of the reformation. New scholarship reveals that even in the most private and almost secretly coded levels in his music composition, he worked hard to worship God with the talents entrusted to him. It did not seem to matter to him that all was not seen by "public" eyes.

Oh that we would believe that the spiritual man is not he who 'comes under the annointing" when in public ministry, but he who has the character and mind of Christ when no one is watching...such a man may not give us goosebumps but he pleases God.

MC




Absolutely!

Question: Could Bach be played in church today, regardless of how well known his faith in God is made known, how well the "anointing"?

Answer: No. It wouldn't sustain the crowd [congregation].

Lets try another: How about Fanny Crosby and the many hymns she wrote, no doubt in my mind by the anointing?

Answer: again, sadly, No.

I've been told by "worship leaders": "Thats not where we want to go".

It is delusional to believe what is given as worship music in the church today is unto God --- delusional thinking to believe it is anything other than more of God abhored man's reasoning presented to please man.

Once, just once, to hear again the resounding sounding of the mighty organ playing, with the congregation singing at the top of their voices: "All Hail The Power of Jesus Name!"

How it must grieve Father that our senstivity to Him, is no more than disregarded presumption; thoughtless-ness considering what is and is not acceptable to Him.

Orm

Please keep in mind that I am long time Pentecostal. I have been in church when for over 4-5 hrs we worshipped in order with music and gifts and the Holy Spirit was sweet. The Pastor never preached a sermon --- didn't need to nor could he.

 2006/11/4 8:52









 Re:

Quote:
A better definition: One who views holiness as legalism.



I know I said I wouldnt respond to Ormly anymore on this thread so as to avoid dissention... but I had to laugh when I read that... I've been called a legalist so many times on here (by folks who dont know what a real legalist is!), and now I've been called to exact opposite!

It kinda bolsters what I said earlier... what some consider annointed, others dont. What some dont consider annointed... others do.

:-? :-?

Krispy

 2006/11/4 8:58









 Re:

For what it may be worth I offer this with my comment:

Antinomianism (from the Greek αντι, "against" + νομος, "law"), or lawlessness (in the Greek Bible: ανομια), 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation
2 : one who rejects a socially established morality. [Websters]

In theology, it is the idea that members of a particular religious group are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality as presented by religious authorities. Antinomianism is the polar opposite of legalism, the notion that obedience to a code of religious law is necessary for salvation. [from the booklet "Beyond Pentecost"]

Generally this opinion is arrived at because of a poor understanding of God’s Grace given us, *to enter to profit at learning intimacy. Rather than see God’s grace as something to enter they, the Antinomians, have seen fit to bring it out of its place of Holiness and Provision to place it upon their uncommitted flesh as an outer garment to be presumptuously worn as a testimony to be seen of men. They make God’s Grace out to be a mask. [My personal note]

Orm

 2006/11/4 9:03









 Re:

This thread really isnt about what kind of music is appropriate in worship. It seems we can never never have a discussion on here about music as an art form... as an expression... as a gift... without it turning into a discussion about the inappropriateness of music in a worship setting.

Do people really believe that we can not just enjoy music for the sake of enjoying music? Putting limitations on music is exactly what makes it so bland and uninsprired. Hasnt anyone here (besides me) just put some music on just for the enjoyment of it?

Ormly mentioned Bach. I grew up on heavy metal in the 80's... and I love Bach. I also love John Coltrain. I love all kinds of music. Some styles are appropriate for worship services... some styles are good for enjoyment. There is noting sinful about that!

When my wife and I farm the kids out for an evening and we're alone at home for a nice romantic dinner by the fire place... I dont put on Petra. Nor do I put on worship music. I generally put on jazz. Different styles for different moods... different styles for different atmospheres.

What do people listen to in December? Christmas music. You dont hear much Christmas music on July 4th.

Oi... people! C'mon! Live life a little! Jesus said He would give us life and life more abundant. Try enjoying it a little.

And no, I am not even coming close to saying that we listen to music with trashy lyrics, or become worldly minded. Everything we do needs to be done as unto the Lord. Everyone here should know where I stand on that.

All I'm saying is lets be honest.

Krispy

 2006/11/4 9:08









 Re:

Ormly... if you're going to use "Antinomianism" to describe me, then all I have to say is that you're speaking out of ignorance.

Personally I find it offensive that you would just casually lump me into that category, because it is not what I believe at all.

Besides, we're not even talking about moral issues here. We're talking about creativity, music, etc.

You've been here long enough to know where I stand on a plethura of issues. I would suggest you go back and review everything I've posted about on this site.

Krispy

 2006/11/4 9:12









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... if you're going to use "Antinomianism" to describe me, then all I have to say is that you're speaking out of ignorance.

Personally I find it offensive that you would just casually lump me into that category, because it is not what I believe at all.

Besides, we're not even talking about moral issues here. We're talking about creativity, music, etc.

You've been here long enough to know where I stand on a plethura of issues. I would suggest you go back and review everything I've posted about on this site.

Krispy



Yes I know. I didn't mean it as a slap. However, everyone get get caught off guard in their thinking, Krispy, even me. When we like certain things outside the camp for reasons that sound right or produce certain, what we FEEL is God honoring, results, we easily begin to seek to justify them. The Bible will accomodate us if we don't study carefully enough.

Orm

 2006/11/4 9:20









 Re:

Ok... in the spirit of trying to come to an understanding... where do you think I am veering off course here? Is there something wrong with putting on some classical music, or perhaps some jazz music, and simply sitting in surround-sound and enjoying the music? What am I missing here?

And where in all of this have I suggested that we forsake holiness, and justify doing so?

Krispy

 2006/11/4 9:34





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