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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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 Re:

Quote:
You realize, of course, that Bach never wrote opera because he considered the genre too worldy and frivilous.



Hmmm... not quote true, bro...

He never wrote an opera that was to be [i]staged[/i].

I did some quick research on this cuz I have on mp3 an operatic composition by Bach, and when I read what you said I thought "what do you mean? I have a recording of one of them!"

I am now quoting from a website about Bach:

[i]He was criticized for using operatic techniques of composition in his liturgical music and passions, so you might say he wrote pseudo operas if you like.

There is a problem though, particularly in the passions, of narrative, since the music alternatively presents the story, (recitatives and some choruses) then comments on it from outside, (arias) and then speaks for the audience (chorales).

A lot of arias and duets and even some entire cantatas are entirely dramatic, but very difficult to stage. Cantata BWV 60, es ist genug, is a dialog between fear and hope which is as operatic as anything in its musical structure, but represents a psychological drama more than a physical drama.[/i]

Look at me...! An old Marine, ex-metal head waxing on about Bach! lol

Krispy

 2006/11/20 16:19
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Dear Steve,

Please tell me the name of the unstaged opera...seriously. I've been studying Bach for over 20 years (not to brag). What is your source, what is the BWV number, and are you sure it's not a secular cantata? There is a big difference between cantata form and opera. Bach wrote no opera, staged or unstaged, this I can assure you (unless it is newly discovered, circa 2006!)

Humbly,

Brother Paul

p.s. I read your post more carefully. It seems they are comparing [i]operatic content[/i] with that of the Passion music of St. Matthew and John. That is because there is a "libretto", but the libretto is the gospel itself! The Passions were written to be sung (not acted out or with any particular style of dress or showy theatrics) in church during the season of Good Friday. The baritone sings Jesus' words, a tenor is the narrator, sopranos sing the part of Mary and Martha. A bass sings Pilate. But the "script" is the actual gospel text! No changes. It's simply Passion music (and very, very pious, I might add) sung by character, and not one ounce of gallantry or triteness is intermingeld; I think Martin Luther's "O Sacred Head Now Wounded" is harmonized like 25 different times. Have you heard them? They are tremendous! Will bring you to your knees!

Bach [i]never[/i] wrote an opera, I repeat.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/20 16:24Profile









 Re:

Dude... we're getting in over my head now... I'm no expert. I just enjoy the music. (Sorry Ormly... I know I shouldnt "enjoy" music... that would be fleshly.. :-))

This is how my mp3's are tagged (thanx to my wife...)

Matthaus-Passion BWV 244

Does that help?

Krispy

 2006/11/20 16:34
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Okay, Steve, thanks. As you can see, I already guessed it was St. Matthew Passion music. Note that St Matthew BWV224 is a [i]passion[/i], not an opera. If someone would have told Bach it reminded them of an opera, he probably would have been greaty insulted! He is even on record by his son's testimony of mocking opera! Comparing his Passion music to opera in the sense as we know it, would be like, well, comparing Charles Wesley's poetry to Mother Goose rhymes.



God Bless you,

Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/20 16:37Profile









 Re:

... I dont know... sounds like an opera to me! LOL

Krispy

 2006/11/20 17:16
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

LOL, well Krisp, whatever edifies your spirit, so be it! A rose called by any other name would smell just as sweet. Thanks for the discussion.

The Lord richly bless you,

Brother Paul

BTW, your signature reminds me of a tongue message. And here you are, questioning Ormly! Haven't you read that you should shouldn't speak publically without an interpretation? :-?


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/20 17:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm curious... how is creating music, specifically modern music, necessarily a compromise? Bach's name has come up several times, and Bach's music was just as much influenced by the music of his times as modern music is now. How do we know one style of music is more godly than another?

Do you wear a suit & tie? Isnt that influenced by the world? Not a bad thing, a suit and tie. But it is influenced by worldy fashion. Jesus wore what people wore while He walked the earth... there is nothing holy about the clothes He wore. (we're not talking about modesty here... the Bible has a lot to say about that)

Jesus went to wedding festivities. He went to the house of Pharisees... do you not think that there was music being played there? There is no mention of whether or not He condoned it, but neither is there any mention of Him condemning it because it had a worldy influence. In fact, the Bible is quite positive about music, with the exception of times when music was being used in idol worship, and the people's hearts were far from God.

If people make an idol of music, or musicians, that is a sin. But I contend that is possible to create and enjoy music that has a modern bent to it and not make an idol of it.

It seems that you are saying once you listen to one note of modern music you've made an idol of it. Not true... not true at all. People made an idol of classical music. I think it's more prevelant today because of technology... so perhaps we should condemn all technology. No iPods for Christians. No CD players.

Krispy



Yeah, I've heard that. All you trying to do is label me a legalist. What you fail to realize in your argument is that holiness, respect, reverence for the Lord's house and His alter is now looked upon as legalism by the modern church cult who can no longer make distinctions between going to church and going to the beach.... All in the name of unity and "lets win the world".

 2006/11/20 17:46
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra

I found an enlightening article for you all - especially Krispy who is trying hard to fit in with the best of the connoisseurs. Krispy I'm proud of you for giving it a noble shot. I learned something from you. However, this one comments needs some adjustment. Really Bach transcended trends and culture. That's why his music lasted.

Quote:
Bach's music was just as much influenced by the music of his times as modern music is now.




For now, the following article will enlighten you sufficiently to impress all your peers:

The Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra
by Garrison Keillor

To each person, God gives some talent such as comedy, just to name one, or the ability to suffer, and to some persons God has given musical talent, though not to as many as think so. So for a young Lutheran considering an orchestral career, the first question to ask yourself is, "Do I have a genuine God-given talent, or do I only seem talented compared to other young Lutherans?"

Because most Lutherans aren't musicians, they're choir members. Mostly altos and basses. And they can be sure that their gift is God-given, because who else but God would be interested? Nobody goes into choir music for the wrong reasons. But orchestra... do you know what you're getting into? You're getting into opera for one thing. Don Juan and Mephistopheles, pagan goddesses screeching and being strangled and thrown off balconies. And even if you stick to concert music, where are the Christian composers? Modern ones are existentialists, the romantics were secular humanists, the 18th century was all rationalists, and the 17th were Italian except for Bach. And you can't make a living playing Bach.

In the Bible, we read about people singing and playing musical instruments, including the harp, the last trumpet, the cymbal, the psaltery. But in the Bible, music was in praise of the Lord, not for amusement. We don't read that our Lord Himself ever played an instrument or enjoyed hearing other people play theirs. The apostles did not attend concerts. They weren't in the arts -- maybe there's a reason for that....

read more here: [url=http://www.geocities.com/catha-edulis/humor/lutheran.htm]The Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra[/url] Find out what instruments are too sinful for Christians to play, and which ones are acceptable. You will be very surprised.


_________________
Diane

 2006/11/20 18:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yeah, I've heard that. All you trying to do is label me a legalist. What you fail to realize in your argument is that holiness, respect, reverence for the Lord's house and His alter is now looked upon as legalism by the modern church cult who can no longer make distinctions between going to church and going to the beach.... All in the name of unity and "lets win the world".



Thats not at all what I am saying. Again, you refuse to go back and read the over 2,400 posts I have written on this forum in an effort to get to know me... so you make rediculous assumptions about me, and put words in my mouth in what appears to be an attempt to make yourself look like I'm persecuting you.

You saying I am against holiness is laughable. As far as God's house and God's alter... His house is not made of wood and stone, and His alter is my heart. You can call an oak railing God's alter if you wish, but it's gonna burn up like chaff. So are our "God's houses" that some heathen construction company was hired to build.

I really wish, Ormly, that you would take some time to get to know my heart... it's laid out on this forum for all to see. But you refuse to do it. How sad that is.

Krispy

 2006/11/21 10:22









 Re:

Ormly... the most frustrating part of all this for me is that I let you bait me into these silly arguments. It's really becoming a waste of time.

You think what you want. If you wish to operate on misunderstandings, be my guest.

Krispy

 2006/11/21 11:11





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