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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Earlier I asked some questions:

Quote:
How do you decide what is NOT “creative?”, What is NOT “of God?”



Ormly replied:
Quote:
Very simple, Diane. If it moves me to worship. ……

…what is presented me ALL TOO OFTEN doesn't take me there; doesn't take into His presence


A subjective definition, is it not?

Is this not the very same goal that our modern generation has: Music ( a certain style) is needed to move me into the presence of God? Just maybe the younger generation learned their values from their forbearers. The same goal – yet divided.

A mutual belief that causes fellowship to be divided is a faulty belief. It does not flow from the heart of God. It expresses man’s values – namely that “I” am the center, and my worship-leaders must give me what works for ME. And if it doesn’t than I will go where others do provide what I need in order to get to God. Music (along with the entire religious package) is given idolatrous power.

These beliefs have created a revolving-door syndrome in our churches. Family members and friends seek separate paths. Mutigenerational loyalty and love is lost to self-serving pursuits. This is a tragedy beyond what words could describe. Can a house divided against itself remain standing?

Quote:
We are to be ministering to the Lord

Does God need our musical offerings? And anyway, who are we to think that God should even like our music – just because WE like it! Our music should be an opportunity to minister to the people – to be OTHER-centered! That is a wonderful way to tangibly express our love for God – by being considerate of others. What about the children? What about seniors? What about the fringe-dwellers? While we are “worshipping” do we even care about them? Or are we too busy in our own little world. When our “worship” replaces relational growth and mutual discipleship in our midst, we have merely turned our music into a self-serving god.

I do not for a minute absolve myself of the present-day trends. When I think back to my earlier years, I confess, I sacrificially served in the church largely to receive something from it for ME – a sense of belonging, friends, praises, security, righteousness. Back then, even in godly conservative churches, the germs of self-serving trends were lurking – undetected.

Today we merely reap the fruit.




_________________
Diane

 2006/11/17 9:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Earlier I asked some questions:
Quote:
How do you decide what is NOT “creative?”, What is NOT “of God?”



Ormly replied:
Quote:
Very simple, Diane. If it moves me to worship. ……

…what is presented me ALL TOO OFTEN doesn't take me there; doesn't take me into His presence


A subjective definition, is it not?



Indeed, it is. I look at music as a aid to worship.

Quote:
Is this not the very same goal that our modern generation has: Music ( a certain style) is needed to move me into the presence of God? Just maybe the younger generation learned their values from their forbearers. The same goal – yet divided.



The idea of worship has become a shield for most to hide behind to excuse what the real desire is, i.e., sounds that please the flesh. A counterfeit that I sense going on because of great lack elseware.

Quote:
A mutual belief that causes fellowship to be divided is a faulty belief. It does not flow from the heart of God. It expresses man’s values – namely that “I” am the center, and my worship-leaders must give me what works for ME. And if it doesn’t than I will go where others do provide what I need in order to get to God. Music (along with the entire religious package) is given idolatrous power.



It seems my choice of words was a poor choice where I said "it doesn't take me there". Perhaps a better way would be to say "sounds from the flesh inhibit my entering His presence or, if I was already in it, I no longer am thanks to the "beat" of whatever obnoxousess is presented me.

Quote:
These beliefs have created a revolving-door syndrome in our churches. Family members and friends seek separate paths. Mutigenerational loyalty and love is lost to self-serving pursuits. This is a tragedy beyond what words could describe. Can a house divided against itself remain standing?



No. However, where does the problem lay?

Quote:
We are to be ministering to the Lord



Yes. I can only wish that to be understood that no "uncircumcised" be allowed to play their "music" as to lead anyone in worship; no one without their "Linen" garment. What we see today is the uncircumcised leading the uncircumcised ---- but into worship???

Quote:
Does God need our musical offerings?



Need? No. Desire? Yes.

Quote:
And anyway, who are we to think that God should even like our music – just because WE like it! Our music should be an opportunity to minister to the people – to be OTHER-centered!



Church service is to be about worshiping God and learning of Him and nothing else. Believers need attend only, please. However, all others are welcome. Do you need a God ordained pattern for this?

Quote:
That is a wonderful way to tangibly express our love for God – by being considerate of others. What about the children? What about seniors? What about the fringe-dwellers? While we are “worshipping” do we even care about them? Or are we too busy in our own little world. When our “worship” replaces relational growth and mutual discipleship in our midst, we have merely turned our music into a self-serving god.



What about the moving of the Holy Spirit upon committed born again lives from an attitude of true "WORTHSHIP"; worthship of Him as a Spirit bearing witness with spirit so that the unlearned can observe and be converted by that same Spirit? You are completely overlooking the Power that can be realized in worship ---- when it is truly, "worthship".

Quote:
I do not for a minute absolve myself of the present-day trends. When I think back to my earlier years, I confess, I sacrificially served in the church largely to receive something from it for ME – a sense of belonging, friends, praises, security, righteousness. Back then, even in godly conservative churches, the germs of self-serving trends were lurking – undetected.



Me too.

Quote:
Today we merely reap the fruit.



Indeed.

Rev. 22:9-11 (KJV)
".......for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

If change is to made, it must start with us and that by hungering and thirsting after Him who reciprocates to true worship from the saints. Where are the saints?

The following is an excerpt from Greg Gordon's article the "The Dethroned Christ". I believe it to apply to the subject of music in the church today as well as it's preaching. It may be the time to explain what we are presented as being a synthesized worship.

[b]OFFENDING A HOLY GOD[/b]

"Reverence, respect and solemnity for the character of God must begin and accompany true gospel preaching. The glorifying of God in preaching extols His character, holiness, attributes and draws a large conception of God. The problem with this modern day synthetic gospel is that we preach man’s need and not God’s character with utmost urgency".


Orm ------- :-(

 2006/11/18 10:34
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: living vicariously through music

Ormly said,

Quote:
I look at music as a aid to worship.

Music that turns us God-ward is a blessing - not a prerequisite. I fear that we have given music a power that is beyond what God has given it. We easily worship our “worship”, and live our faith vicariously through the experience music provides – regardless of the style.
Quote:
The idea of worship has become a shield for most to hide behind to excuse what the real desire is...

This is the plight of religious practise in general – an inoculation against the real thing, a way of escaping from facing our real selves. That is our real desire, and that keeps us distance from God (who he really is). Our “worship” is our modern “fig-leaves”. The church (small “c”) has been offering fig leaves for centuries. Really, (hypocritical) religion is all about hiding from God behind something that gives us a sense of righteousness. That, I feel is an answer to your question:
Quote:
…where does the problem lay?

Go back to the Garden, and then you’ll get to the root of the problem.
Quote:
A counterfeit that I sense going on because of great lack elseware.

It is this lack that we should focus on – the lack, not the symptom. It is all about a LACK in the souls of man. If those wandering lost and lonely souls become satisfied in Christ, the tendency towards misuse of music would dissipate. There would be no need for a cheep substitute.

Quote:
"sounds from the flesh inhibit my entering His presence or, if I was already in it, I no longer am thanks to the "beat" of whatever obnoxousess is presented me.

Of course subjectivity makes it hard to define parameters. Flesh? There are a lot of beautiful musical sounds that originate from unsaved people – in fact, as far as I’m concerned, by far, the most aesthetically pleasing sounds, and including sacred songs do not come from true Christians now or ever in the past.

I can praise God, and enjoy him through recordings and concerts that are completely outside of the Christian environment, or the Sunday morning “sacred” hour. Ooshy gooshy god-like feelings is not the highest blessing that can come from music. There are many others, either as a participant or audience. How about the joy of working together in unity and harmony - as a team.
Quote:
We are to be ministering to the Lord

As you pointed out, that must become true for our personal lives. We can’t make our entire church fellowships or praise teams become God-centered. My goodness, I struggle with that all the time. To expect our church congregations, or even the leaders to have a mature level of devotion to God is just not realistic. It’s utopia-thinking. We have to live in the real world, not our ideals. There is no point in contriving a fantasy. We need revival. And that starts with me as you said:
Quote:
If change is to made, it must start with us and that by hungering and thirsting after Him who reciprocates to true worship from the saints.




Quote:
I can only wish that to be understood that no "uncircumcised" be allowed to play their "music" as to lead anyone in worship; no one without their "Linen" garment. What we see today is the uncircumcised leading the uncircumcised ---- but into worship???


Let the dead bury the dead.

I asked:
Quote:
Does God need our musical offerings?

You responded:
Quote:
Need? No. Desire? Yes.

God desires our hearts. Any offerings that spring forth from a pure heart are pleasing to him. We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.

One day God asked me to give him a private concert. I balked, thinking how ridiculous it would be to practise hard and then only play it for him. He told me, clearly, “Am I not a good enough audience for you?” Let me tell you, that broke me up. I became aware of my sloppy attitude towards him, and realized that he wants my first-fruits (and it wasn’t even religious music that he wanted – it was Chopin, something I never play these days). If our music is an offering to God, then we don’t need any other audience – including a congregation.

Quote:
Church service is to be about worshiping God and learning of Him and nothing else. Believers need attend only please. However, all others are welcome. Do you need a God ordained pattern for this?


If you want that ideal, you’d have to go to a persecuted country, where only the authentic dare associate themselves with God’s people. But you’d have to give up your idea of church, including the music you love. You may only be able to whisper hymns and spiritual songs to one another.

Quote:
Where are the saints?


God can lead. One day I visited a dear lady and we sang together in her home – just praising God.

We don’t enter God’s presence through music, but through the torn veil. Music is not necessarily the medium God needs to talk to us. In fact, sometimes he “turns the radio off” so that we can hear his voice. That’s exactly what he did one day when I was in church. Suddenly the music was tuned out, and God spoke to me. It was a painful prophetic message about that congregation. While the people were joyously praising God with hands in the air, I was in tears, knowing that God was about to take us all into some fiery trials.

My worship of him grows deeper through my times in the Word. It brings me to ever deepening truth about myself, and my need for him. Greg’s thoughts deserve our contemplation:
Quote:
"Reverence, respect and solemnity for the character of God must begin and accompany true gospel preaching. The glorifying of God in preaching extols His character, holiness, attributes and draws a large conception of God. The problem with this modern day synthetic gospel is that we preach man’s need and not God’s character with utmost urgency".


The vacuum created by weak preaching is being replaced by music – as an effort to find God. But it is only another way of bi-passing the brazen altar.


_________________
Diane

 2006/11/20 7:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God desires our hearts. Any offerings that spring forth from a pure heart are pleasing to him. We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.



To whom then is it made?? :-?

Quote:


Church service is to be about worshiping God and learning of Him and nothing else. Believers need attend only please. However, all others are welcome. Do you need a God ordained pattern for this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
If you want that ideal, you’d have to go to a persecuted country, where only the authentic dare associate themselves with God’s people. But you’d have to give up your idea of church, including the music you love. You may only be able to whisper hymns and spiritual songs to one another.



The Ideal?? The Church is the Body of Christ. That means what it says. If that is idealistic to you may I suggest a re-reading of scriptures that say it is the normal church. Less than that is sub-normal and anti-Christ.

FWIW and in case you haven't noticed, persecution is with us.

:-(

 2006/11/20 8:26
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: music for whom?

I said:

Quote:
We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.

You said:
Quote:
To whom then is it made??

Maybe I should have written: “We don’t make music in order to WIN God – or win his approval, or to measure up in his eyes, or to chase away the demons, or to bring down a divine manifestation. Those objectives arise from a works doctrine – not to say that people can’t be blessed in spite of faulty motives. It happens all the time.

Quote:
If that is idealistic to you may I suggest a re-reading of scriptures that say it is the normal church.


I didn’t use the word ‘idealistic’ – as if the “normal church”, as God sets forth, is an unreasonable desire. But since we don’t have it, and we can’t make it happen, we must figure out how to live in the reality – as it is, not as we wish it to be. We praise God for the little flickers of blessings we receive through it, and we bring blessing into the lives of the people rather than merely wish they could improve so that we could have a better experience.

Quote:
persecution is with us.


We haven’t seen anything yet! Compromise keeps it at bay for now. I'm sure that God will take care of that. After all, he's not willing that any should perish.


_________________
Diane

 2006/11/20 9:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
I said:
Quote:
We don't make music in order to please him. That's a works doctrine.

You said:
Quote:
To whom then is it made??

Quote:
Maybe I should have written: “We don’t make music in order to WIN God – or win his approval, or to measure up in his eyes, or to chase away the demons, or to bring down a divine manifestation. Those objectives arise from a works doctrine – not to say that people can’t be blessed in spite of faulty motives. It happens all the time.



Music is to be to Him; worshipful sounds - to Him, pleasing to His ears from hearts full of devotion.

Quote:
If that is idealistic to you may I suggest a re-reading of scriptures that say it is the normal church.


Quote:
I didn’t use the word ‘idealistic’ – as if the “normal church”, as God sets forth, is an unreasonable desire. But since we don’t have it, and we can’t make it happen, we must figure out how to live in the reality – as it is, not as we wish it to be. We praise God for the little flickers of blessings we receive through it, and we bring blessing into the lives of the people rather than merely wish they could improve so that we could have a better experience.



That's nothing but compromise; man's reasoning in the matter. Leadership using the tools of Broadway to win those in the broadway.

You used the word "ideal" in your reasoning to be something that can't be reached. I disagree. The ideal is where we are to be regardless of the following. Jesus was the ideal that people followed. You must remember, the world hated Him. So where do you think you/we should stand in the matter?

Quote:
persecution is with us.


Quote:
We haven’t seen anything yet! Compromise keeps it at bay for now. I'm sure that God will take care of that. After all, he's not willing that any should perish.



Compromise, man's reasoning, takes care of that? And how much of Christ should be compromised to "win" the world? You have aroused my curiousity, especially since compromise is under God's judgment.



:-?

 2006/11/20 12:57









 Re:

I'm curious... how is creating music, specifically modern music, necessarily a compromise? Bach's name has come up several times, and Bach's music was just as much influenced by the music of his times as modern music is now. How do we know one style of music is more godly than another?

Do you wear a suit & tie? Isnt that influenced by the world? Not a bad thing, a suit and tie. But it is influenced by worldy fashion. Jesus wore what people wore while He walked the earth... there is nothing holy about the clothes He wore. (we're not talking about modesty here... the Bible has a lot to say about that)

Jesus went to wedding festivities. He went to the house of Pharisees... do you not think that there was music being played there? There is no mention of whether or not He condoned it, but neither is there any mention of Him condemning it because it had a worldy influence. In fact, the Bible is quite positive about music, with the exception of times when music was being used in idol worship, and the people's hearts were far from God.

If people make an idol of music, or musicians, that is a sin. But I contend that is possible to create and enjoy music that has a modern bent to it and not make an idol of it.

It seems that you are saying once you listen to one note of modern music you've made an idol of it. Not true... not true at all. People made an idol of classical music. I think it's more prevelant today because of technology... so perhaps we should condemn all technology. No iPods for Christians. No CD players.

Krispy

 2006/11/20 13:07









 Re:

Ormly... just wondering... are you a Charismatic? I ask this because a lot of your opinions seem to be based on your experience. In other words, you seem to base your opinions on music on whether or not it moves [b]you[/b]. If it doesn't move [b]you[/b] to worship, then you condemn it as being worldly. You've brought up some scripture to supposedly bolster your position, but so far I am unconvinced.

Just because something doesn't appeal to you, or move you, doesn't mean it doesn't move anyone else. Certain things move my wife emotionally, and do nothing for me. She cried when Bambi's mother got shot... and I was wondering how much that fattened doe weighed when she was dressed out. (Plus... I wondered what kind of lame parents name their son "Bambi"?!?!)

See what I mean?

Krispy

 2006/11/20 13:31
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
She cried when Bambi's mother got shot... and I was wondering how much that fattened doe weighed when she was dressed out.



But I bet you bawled like a baby when Old Yeller got shot! :-)

(C'mon, fess up. It's all right. I cried when they shot down King Kong!)

Seriously, though - Good posts, Steve. Especially the reference to JS Bach and the music of his time. I consider myself somewhat of an aficionado on the life and music of Bach, and the impact his liturgical music had on the western world. You are quite right in what you posted. Bach didn't come up with any new "style" of music; his ouvre was rather the supreme culmination of French, German and Italian baroque styles that were already in preexistence. He brought the glory of Lutheran choral music to its utmost summit, and in my opinion, one that will never be surpassed. I think it's apples and oranges though to compare the secular music of Bach's time with the secular music of today. You realize, of course, that Bach never wrote opera because he considered the genre too worldy and frivilous. Nevermind bringing it into the church!

Bach was religiously unique, and had very conservative convictions, unlike Handel and Mozart - who both composed operas amidst their great Christian works. I've heard that Handel, the composer of the [i]Messiah[/i], composed parts of the illustrious masterpeice drunk. Mozart was a known Freemason.

Why do I say all this? Not for gossip. I think Bach may be a poor argument for justification of contemporary muisc in the church. Did you know that in his time, we was known unaffectionately as "Old Wig" because his compositional styles were so out of vogue, so pious, so stiff? Baroque music, around the time of the 1720's and 30's was transitioning into the lighter, more gallant Rococo style of France and the style eventually penetrated the church music of Bach's time as well (his sons were great proponents of this stylistic change). But Bach was a staunch purest, and withstood the popular fashion and continued to compose in the outdated and pious Lutheran chorale style until the day he died. In fact, Bach's death in 1750 is now considered the [i]exact point[/i] in history by musicologists where the official style of western music shifted from baroque to early classical.

So - I believe Bach is not a good trump for anyone to win a "contemporary music in the house of God" debate. Handel is a much better choice!

Blessings,

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/20 13:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But I bet you bawled like a baby when Old Yeller got shot!



... yea, but he was a dog. Thats different!

Krispy

 2006/11/20 14:55





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