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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
tpique1...

OI! I agree with every word you said. Try reading everything I've ever posted on here. That's not the point of this thread.

I thought we could all have a dicussion about music and artistic expression and creativity... I guess not.

Either that, or I'm not getting my points across very well. Charles Spurgeon once said "It's possible to be so heavenly minded that we become no earthly good". I think he was right.

Krispy



I believe you can if you don't take it a step too far. In my opinion, creativity is kin to sentimentalism. Sentimentalism will not support intimacy. Intimacy is what this whole thing should be about. If being creative in my music will take me there, I will play it ---- and I do. However, that music is an offering from me and not from anyone else unless what I play enables them to join me. Get my drift? Now when I say most contemporary music played in the church inhibits my worship, you know where I am coming from. What is to become of us who have a deire to worship when the music played is worldly and seeker sensitive?




:-?

 2006/11/10 16:03









 Re:

Quote:
I believe you can if you don't take it a step too far. In my opinion, creativity is kin to sentimentalism. Sentimentalism will not support intimacy. Intimacy is what this whole thing should be about. If being creative in my music will take me there, I will play it ---- and I do. However, that music is an offering from me and not from anyone else unless what I play enables them to join me. Get my drift? Now when I say most contemporary music played in the church inhibits my worship, you know where I am coming from. What is to become of us who have a deire to worship when the music played is worldly and seeker sensitive?



Let me ask you a question for a change... ;-)

Do you believe that it is wrong to create music, or art with the purpose of other people's enjoyment? I do agree that we should do all things as unto the Lord, no problem there. But can an artistic expression bring enjoyment to others AND be done unto the Lord at the same time?

Say I make a painting (I'm not artistic in that manner... just making an example), and I do it so that other people will enjoy it. Can I also do it unto the Lord by making the best possible painting I can, and honoring the Lord for giving me this artistic talent?

What if I write a song about my stunningly beautiful wife? (And she is too! Y'all would be both surprised and jealous...lol) Suppose I write about her beautiful blue eyes, and her soft hair... etc. I'm writing it to please her, and build her up and make her feel loved. Isnt possible for me to write that song for and to her, and at the same time honor God? That song would not necessarily bring us into a worshipful atmosphere. Maybe another kind of atmosphere that I like, but not one where we fall to our knees in worship and praise to God.

See what I'm saying? Isnt it possible to have artistic expression that is both horizontal AND vertical?

See... THIS is what this thread was supposed to be about.

Krispy

 2006/11/10 16:22









 Re:

Sure, just don't call it worship. Worship is a step aside [or more] from the honorable thing that takes one into the presence of God. The honorable thing done unto people is just that and no more than, honorable. If done as you say, to please people and they are pleased, expect no more from God. You have received your reward, from people.

Now ask, if your creativity in worship, knowing it is from your heart and done skillfully, doesn't please the people --- what will you do? What should your decision be? :-o

 2006/11/10 16:41
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re:

Hey Krispy,

Thanks for the reply...

Yeah, you are almost "old enough" to socialize with my parents, but not quite. That was supposed to be a general statement geared for its political science application... that reality is often not quite what it seems. I'm not trying to patronize you. ;-)

I doubt I'll agree with your take on the breadth of the music industry, but I can chalk a great deal of that up to a wholly different background, age, and land-mass separation... the rest probably based on a different respect of "poetry."

I do imagine that a bit of brilliance would be a good thing.

And I, too, wish to thank you for serving this country!


I still find it almost laughable that the man we (as a group) seem to want to bring into this discussion (for worship and otherwise) was a man who was often as not willing to let his emotions lead him (noticing a difference between the word "lead" and "control"). Yet here we are...



Ormly... It works both ways, sir. Wisdom is an impressive thing when wrought in youth, be it the youth within an older leadership (subjective), or the youth of men. Ignorance of it for the sake of preserving culture or personal value is about the darkest poison one can drink... for it our Lord was crucified. He, too, was not an old man, then.

The Welsh revival which did not stop in Wales in 1905 was evidenced by the wisdom of one young man... who told his pastor after a few mere months at school that he wished to address the congregation. Courage, assurance, and fortified knowledge with the understanding to use it... can be a wondrous thing. Blessed was it to be contagious then.

And you have already once agreed with me, meaning we can't be all wrong (to say the least).


And Compton... I don't quite get the correlation of your reply to my last post! You seemed to take a wide political swath at a loose political relation. ;-) I think my goal with that statement is that God is ever vigilant, and even as the world tries to root Him from one place, He'll find a good way to make it darn hard to be ignored in a more prevalent fashion somewhere else. Right now, to me it seems to be music. People believe in Him, and they're making it known they do (mostly those ones that Krispy has written he'd rather listen to than the CCM people because you know they're in it for the money, stardom, or something of that nature.) Some of 'em really do just wanna sing, Krispy.


_________________
David Reynolds

 2006/11/10 18:50Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
And Compton... I don't quite get the correlation of your reply to my last post



You say that like I actually might have had some correlation in mind! ;-) :-P

Seriously, you are right to say I was taking a broad look there...I was expanding from the subject of music to observe that we've been converted by the world in almost every area of church. In this broad context I see no difference between music, politics or money or whatever...we could talk about all these things interchangably. It used to be that backsliders stayed away from churches...now we have mega-churches that are entire warehouses for backsliders and their secular motivational sermons, bumper bands, and gourmet coffee.

If it's in the world we want it in church.

That's all! I wasn't actually disagreeing or agreeing with any point... just jumping in!

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/10 21:00Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:

I can almost see God taking a deep sigh while saying, "Oh yeah, hmm, right, [i]liar[/i]". :-(


Why are you frustrated? Can't defend what can't defended?

Quote:
I am not directing it at any one person or anything. Everyone keeps mentioning some Scripture in their own arguments but neglects to see all the other Scriptures that other bring up.



Bring them up --- IN CONTEXT!

Quote:
To say that your Scripture is truth and my Scripture is false, is calling God himself a liar, and saying that David was an "inhibitor of worship!"



No -- you are saying that from an "unlearned" position quite obvious to those older in the faith.

Ask more questions instead proclaiming from what can be seen as willful ignorance. No offense, mind you.


8-)



Ormly,

The points you keep bringing up are good, and well, challenging points, but I must come back to the Scriptures, as well. If you look all throughout Scripture, you will see creativity in worship and song. David wrote from his creative heart. He wasn't singing someone else's song. He was singing his own. Doesn't that imply creativity in worship? He created the song. He was the artist. I would clasify that as creative. After all, his songs are heartfelt and justly bring glory to our magnificant God.

I was frustrated that you often vear (sp?) off the subject and argue over some minor detail to the conversation, rather then to the topic at hand. I can defend my position, because I know what the Scriptures say.

You say that I am unlearned and that you know more then I. Well, you know what, you may be right that you have some wisdom from your years in Christ, but then again, I must reflect upon David, a man after God's own heart, and he started writing his songs when he was just a kid. I will put my stakes in a creative kid that was after God's own heart and God was delighted with his creative worship and song. I will also take from David a truth that God most certianly wanted for us 3000 + years later, "Psalm 149: 1 Praise the LORD. Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints." To me, this implies creativity! You did bring up some relevant Scriptures in some of your other posts about how we should worship, but that is what is so awesome about the creativity of God's people in Scripture... they all had very creative ways in worshiping God, and "He delights in the praises of his people!"

I do not deny the Scriptures you mentioned. They are relevant and truth. What I don't understand is why you can't see the relevancy of other Scriptures that are truth from the same Bible?

P.S. Since David was a worshipper, I believe I am bringing up Psalms in the correct context of worship and singing by voice, intrument and dancing!

 2006/11/13 11:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The points you keep bringing up are good, and well, challenging points, but I must come back to the Scriptures, as well.....you will see creativity in worship and song. David wrote from his creative heart. He wasn't singing someone else's song. He was singing his own. Doesn't that imply creativity in worship?




No, it doesn't. However, it does point up his spontaneity in expressing his heart. Now if can you cite one scripture that points up his creativity where he pre-wrote music for others to sing, you might persuade me?

You see, there is difference between singing to what David wrote as it applies to his heart than from the position of hoping that what he wrote will persuade God or be pleasing to Him because we sing it --- without his heart. We can't hide behind what David or anyone else writes --- as we might suppose, to be written for God, in our behalf.

:-D

 2006/11/13 12:02
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:
The points you keep bringing up are good, and well, challenging points, but I must come back to the Scriptures, as well.....you will see creativity in worship and song. David wrote from his creative heart. He wasn't singing someone else's song. He was singing his own. Doesn't that imply creativity in worship?



No, it doesn't. However, it does point up his spontaneity in expressing his heart. Now if can you cite one scripture that points up his creativity where he pre-wrote music for others to sing, you might persuade me?

You see, there is difference between singing to what David wrote as it applies to his heart than from the position of hoping that what he wrote will persuade God or be pleasing to Him because we sing it --- without his heart. We can't hide behind what David or anyone else writes --- as we might suppose, to be written for God, in our behalf.

:-D



Exactly, the point! Which is why what David wrote about writing a new song legitimate... and also my point about me, for example, writing a song from my heart that legitamently glorifies God. It's called creativity! Are you saying that spontaneity isn't a form of the creative process? If I was living my life doing only 1 thing and out of spontaneity I chose to do something different - that is also creativity, because it is stepping out of my comfort zone and doing something out of the norm (which requires a form of creativity). You can't deny that!

 2006/11/13 12:27Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

I just got this email from Charles Stanley

November 13, 2006

Made for Praise

Psalm 34:1

Something is happening in the church today. Something is sweeping through our congregations, stirring worshipers to glorify God in unexpected ways. Something many services around the world had all but eradicated is returning to church in force. That something, surprisingly, is praise.

For a long time, churches were so focused on evangelism and accurate Bible teaching that, somewhere along the way, the art of praise was given less room for expression. In fact, some people today never missed praise, because they had never truly been exposed to it. But the “new” worship that we see exploding around the world today is not really new at all. It is the sound of praise returning to the church.

God’s people were made for praise. Embedded in our spirits, praise is something we cannot escape or ignore. The apostle Peter says, “You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9, emphasis added). How beautiful it is to know that we are God’s own people, created, chosen, and called by Him so that we may “proclaim . . . [His] excellencies.” In other words, our main responsibility is a life of praise to our heavenly Father.

Does your worship reflect genuine adoration and praise for God? Does your heart sing as you lift your hands to heaven, giving glory to the Lord? He is worthy of our praise. Give it to Him today.


 2006/11/13 12:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:


Exactly, the point! Which is why what David wrote about writing a new song legitimate




For him, yes, but not for you? --- you aren't David.

Quote:
... and also my point about me, for example, writing a song from my heart that legitamently glorifies God. It's called creativity! Are you saying that spontaneity isn't a form of the creative process?



Right! What you spontan-ise over is for you. Don't ask me to accept it....especially if it sounds bad.

Quote:
If I was living my life doing only 1 thing and out of spontaneity I chose to do something different - that is also creativity, because it is stepping out of my comfort zone and doing something out of the norm (which requires a form of creativity). You can't deny that!



Create away... just don't call it, "of God".

:-(

 2006/11/13 12:35





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