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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Geez Kripsy... you just keep hitting the nail on the head over and over! Great stuff, my friend!

 2006/11/10 9:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Geez Kripsy... you just keep hitting the nail on the head over and over! Great stuff, my friend!



... I gotta print this stuff out, man. LOL

Krispy

 2006/11/10 9:06









 Re:

Not directed to me, Krispy wrote:

Quote:
By the way, son, I'm only 39. Cut me some slack on the mom and pops thing!! LOL



I'm glad to know your age, Krispy. My son is your age and a worship leader in a large "bubble gum" church. Our disagreement over music is an on-going event, when the subject comes up. Why? Because there is a "learned" [not from me] disdain for the traditional hymn[s] simply because they do not appeal to the young set which the post-modern church is all about. Excuses for sustaining the "new way" come easy when leadership sees numbers as meaning success. "God must be in it because there are so many". But in this it must be seen that the end does not justify the means. The music in conjunction with the "purpose driven", "facilitated" preaching-teaching, is taking its toll. I am not exaggerating when I say there is disdain for the old ways. Using a broad brush approach, if you look carefully you will presently find there is no longer knowledge of the old ways being presented to the churches. Present day leadership is devoid of the understanding of it except to lift and manipulate for its purposes those verses they deem helpful to their cause. There is a booklet posted on SI by the same thread name, "Beyond Pentecost". I strongly suggest everyone read it and then come back to the table.

On to your latest:

Quote:
Ormly, I apologize for asking you not to post on this particular thread. While I do feel that you're not really understanding most of what I am saying... I think a better way that I could have handled it yesterday would have been to ask you to refrain from casting out comments that appear to be judgmental.



Apology accepted, Krispy, and I might add, you don't need one from me. The fact you ask for one reveals your heart, which I never had questions about. So you haven't disappointed me for which I am thankful to the Lord for His grace IN you. Rectification for both of us should always be invited. In this issue I only wish to share my 30 yrs [more] experience with you and whomever.

Please, let me at the outset say that I am NOT one of those who believes the church is [or to be] comprised of the saved and unsaved. Notwithstanding an alter call, the need to compromise the teaching from the pulpit is unecessary and should be disallowed, allowing the Holy Spirit to act upon the heart of the unsaved who may be present instead of “slick manipulation” or “feel good easyism” for the betterment of church coffers or whatever. I don’t need nor want to hear the same message of salvation everyweek. Nor do I want a message that assumes salvation for everyone in attendance. The reasons should be obvious both to the hungry heart or not so hungry heart.

I wish also to say that judgment begins in the house of the Lord. It begins first with me. However, we must allow judgment to happen in our circle IF it is objective. *Objective judgment deals with the outside manifestations; outside influences, meaning if it sounds bad, looks bad, smells bad, acts bad, --- it's bad and not suitable for the holy place. Guard the doors and don’t let it in. This is not personal except to protect the flock, especially the unlearned within it.. To the “unlearned” person and there are many in leadership these days with good intentions it can be offensive and will be, however, we all know that the road to hell is paved with them, However we must not judge *subjectively unless God gives a specific word to you to speak; a word of discerment.

[Note: I trust I am using the words "obectively" and "subjectively" correctly in what I am trying to say]

To cont....

We shoud all be in a Spiritual condition to hear such a confirming or not-so-confirming, “Spirit bearing witness”, word. Do not tell me, “look at the heart”. I can't judge the heart, that is already under the scrutiny of a higher authority, regardless of my perception. What I can judge, and must, is what affect is being made upon the assembly of those who can be persuaded because they are infants and/or are [hopefully] growing in the Lord. I must judge the [b]result[/b] of the intention, be it a result that persuades [not convicts] the world or is it pleasing to God that He can be blessed. That is our leadership responsibility. If music moves people, which I heartly agree, does, I ask does it also move God? First, it must move the heart [*mine] to worship. If I am in union with Him, my relationship with Him is my “Plumbline”. [Spirit bearing witness]

*Most always, instead of worshipping, I found myself praying for the born again experience to happen for those on the “worship team” that the Holiness of God be revealed to them; in them and as a consequence, from them.

Can it be received by Him in any other way than the heart? Programs and methods aren’t blessable especially when they come from the world. Is it not grievous to Him He can’t receive it because, while the intent and effort to give it may be there, the new birth is missing that brings needed rectification and revelation.


Hosea 4:6 (NASB)
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest.
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

In the above verse can be seen a prescribed way. It is knowledge, and in what I speak of is, knowledge by revelation, by the New Birth.

In this, from scripture, we know He will NOT compromise His Holiness. He CAN"T do that. Therefore, there is a prescribed way to approach His throne. “Spirit and Truth” is the way. Nothing, in my estimation, objectively speaking, should ever violate that. Compromise with the world, does. That's scripturual fact, both OT and NT.

Here are some scriptures that come readily to mind and point up the sensitivity of the issue of approsching the Lord:

1 Chron. 16:29 (KJV)
Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before *Him: worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

* not the congregation.

2 Chron. 20:21 (KJV)
And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the Lord; for His mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 29:2 (KJV)
Give unto the Lord the glory due unto His name; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

Psalm 96:9 (KJV)
O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before Him, all the earth.

I repeat, worship is to be about worship, not creativity. It is a time when holy hands are to be lifted up unto the Lord, singing unto Him a new song from a new you that is ever being made new by Him, ----- out from the world.

Speaking of His Church Paul says this:

“Which is his body, the fulness of him that fills all in all”. Ephes. 1:23 (KJV)

Note that Jesus fills all IN all. It does not say [b]with[/b] all or [b]by[/b] all or [b]through[/b] all. He [b]fills all with Himself[/b] that we fill all of us [b]IN[/b] Him. He is [b]THE ALL[/b] and Paul’s wording connotes complete union with the Father, before the world was! Can you see that??!! Present tense!

Anything that inhibits, distracts, or causes attention to be placed upon anything that leads worshippers away from that understanding, is unacceptable. For now, beauty and holiness is THE ALL we can offer our Father. Does He possess us that we possess Him?

Orm

 2006/11/10 10:30









 Re:

Quote:
Skillet
(You are My Hope)
Times are hard
Times have changed
Don't you say
But I keep holding on to you
It's hard to keep the faith alive day to day
Leaning on the strength I've found in you
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Far beyond what I can see or comprehend
Etching your eternity in me
Nations stream and angels sing, "Jesus reigns"
And every knee bows down
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Carry on and I sing of how
You love and I love you now
All the times that I start to sink
You come and you rescue me
You are my hope
You are my hope



I can almost see God taking a deep sigh while saying, "Oh yeah, hmm, right, [i]liar[/i]". :-(

Ben wrote:
Quote:
Ok, so yes, you can all sense some frustration here from me.



Why are you frustrated? Can't defend what can't defended?

Quote:
I am not directing it at any one person or anything. Everyone keeps mentioning some Scripture in their own arguments but neglects to see all the other Scriptures that other bring up.



Bring them up --- IN CONTEXT!

Quote:
To say that your Scripture is truth and my Scripture is false, is calling God himself a liar, and saying that David was an "inhibitor of worship!"



No -- you are saying that from an "unlearned" position quite obvious to those older in the faith.

Ask more questions instead proclaiming from what can be seen as willful ignorance. No offense, mind you.


8-)

 2006/11/10 10:38









 Re:

Quote:
I'm glad to know your age, Krispy. My son is your age and a worship leader in a large "bubble gum" church. Our disagreement over music is an on-going event, when the subject comes up. Why? Because there is a "learned" [not from me] disdain for the traditional hymn[s] simply because they do not appeal to the young set which the post-modern church is all about. Excuses for sustaining the "new way" come easy when leadership sees numbers as meaning success. "God must be in it because there are so many". But in this it must be seen that the end does not justify the means. The music in conjunction with the "purpose driven", "facilitated" preaching-teaching, is taking its toll. I am not exaggerating when I say there is disdain for the old ways. Using a broad brush approach, if you look carefully you will presently find there is no longer knowledge of the old ways being presented to the churches. Present day leadership is devoid of the understanding of it except to lift and manipulate for its purposes those verses they deem helpful to their cause. There is a booklet posted on SI by the same thread name, "Beyond Pentecost". I strongly suggest everyone read it and then come back to the table.



Hey... ya know? I agree with you 100%!!

This is what I am talking about. State your position clearly, and we can find some common ground. You're preaching to the choir, brother... I've been saying these very things for a loooooong time on this forum.

Your post finally revealed what you've been trying to say. I find that on a forum like this it is hard to get a point across in the same manner you might with someone your talking face to face with. Face to face I ask probing questions to get the listening to think... but it doesnt work well here. I find that being direct and making your point works best.

Thats what you did in this post, and it was great!

And I agree with you! 100%! You are saying things that I have been saying all along on this forum.

Krispy

 2006/11/10 10:39
tpique1
Member



Joined: 2005/12/13
Posts: 25


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree too...

The issue of the lack of creativity in music seems to be stuck on a worship theme. Why is that?

Thats a legitimate question I'm asking. Am I the only one who simply enjoys music for what it is... does it always have to have regulations and limitations? To me, that stifles creativity as much as money does.

Is there no place in the Church for creative expression? God is a wonderful Creator... and since we are made in His image, wouldnt that suggest that we are created to be creative?

Krispy



Krispy,

This is a relatively modern concept of music in worship — the emphasis that God is concerned with is not what you're bringing to Him in the form of creativity or music, He's concerned with what holds your affection.

Does the music conform you to the world?
("Friendship with the world is enmity (hatred)with God...)

Has it crossed the line of distinction that God has set for His people?
('Come out from among them...) ("Ye are a chosen generation, a peculiar people...)

Does it compromise the Gospel message and exhalt itself?

Does it exhalt man over God by putting the focus on the "star musician" and not on Christ?
("To live is Christ...)

We live in a very compromised society. We are often encouraged to conform to its likeness. The voice of the culture will always be louder than the voice of God, and we have to decide which we will isten to.

Being a Christian is more than just saying Christian things — it isn't a claim, it's a lifestyle. And often times that lifestyle comes at a cost — self-denial, and taking up a cross.

And just as Tozer once said: "You knew one thing about about a man carrying a cross out of the city; you knew he wasn't coming back."

That is the life of a Christian...not loving our own wants, desires, preferences, lives, even unto death (if need be), but total surrender of everything that pulls me away from Christ.

All things extend from the heart, and God knows whether not our heart is His or ours.


_________________
Tom

 2006/11/10 12:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:

tpique1 wrote:
Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree too...

The issue of the lack of creativity in music seems to be stuck on a worship theme. Why is that?

Thats a legitimate question I'm asking. Am I the only one who simply enjoys music for what it is... does it always have to have regulations and limitations? To me, that stifles creativity as much as money does.

Is there no place in the Church for creative expression? God is a wonderful Creator... and since we are made in His image, wouldnt that suggest that we are created to be creative?

Krispy



Krispy,

This is a relatively modern concept of music in worship — the emphasis that God is concerned with is not what you're bringing to Him in the form of creativity or music, He's concerned with what holds your affection.

Does the music conform you to the world?
("Friendship with the world is enmity (hatred)with God...)

Has it crossed the line of distinction that God has set for His people?
('Come out from among them...) ("Ye are a chosen generation, a peculiar people...)

Does it compromise the Gospel message and exhalt itself?

Does it exhalt man over God by putting the focus on the "star musician" and not on Christ?
("To live is Christ...)

We live in a very compromised society. We are often encouraged to conform to its likeness. The voice of the culture will always be louder than the voice of God, and we have to decide which we will isten to.

Being a Christian is more than just saying Christian things — it isn't a claim, it's a lifestyle. And often times that lifestyle comes at a cost — self-denial, and taking up a cross.

And just as Tozer once said: "You knew one thing about about a man carrying a cross out of the city; you knew he wasn't coming back."

That is the life of a Christian...not loving our own wants, desires, preferences, lives, even unto death (if need be), but total surrender of everything that pulls me away from Christ.

All things extend from the heart, and God knows whether not our heart is His or ours.




Very well thought out, referenced and written, TP.

 2006/11/10 12:26
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

One more digression from the topic of this thread....


It's Veterans' Day and I wanted to say thank you KrispyK, as well as the other veterans past and current, for your service to this country.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/10 13:35Profile









 Re:

tpique1...

OI! I agree with every word you said. Try reading everything I've ever posted on here. That's not the point of this thread.

I thought we could all have a dicussion about music and artistic expression and creativity... I guess not.

Either that, or I'm not getting my points across very well. Charles Spurgeon once said "It's possible to be so heavenly minded that we become no earthly good". I think he was right.

Krispy

 2006/11/10 13:57









 Re:

Quote:
It's Veterans' Day and I wanted to say thank you KrispyK, as well as the other veterans past and current, for your service to this country.



You're welcome bro. Anytime.

It's also the birthday of the Marine Corp. Semper Fi to any of my brothers & sisters who are reading this. Hope y'all are still living by the code.

Krispy

 2006/11/10 13:58





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