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 Re:

Now... If I may, I would like to bring a little focus back this thread.

Most of y'all have been conversating with me long enough to know that I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote the modern CCM industry, and I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote most of those who perform CCM.

CCM, as it is today, is about money. Not God. Money. It is about finding singers that look and act like the world in order to sell CD's. Many of the women singers in CCM dress immodestly. Most of the performers are not accountable to any local fellowship. Many are extremely ecumenical, which indicates to me that they do not understand sound doctrine.

There are very few performers that I advocate. Steve Camp, Keith Green, people like that are the only ones I publicly promote to others.

Many will argue that the extreme worldliness in CCM today is because they have adopted the world's music. I do not think that is true. I know many local musicians who dont get paid a dime for their music, and they play modern music... and they are in it 100% for ministry, and they are some of the most on fire people you'd ever meet.

Whats the difference? Money.

Money is what has made CCM what it is today. Greed. Lust. Not music. Music is not sin. Love of money is sin. Greed is sin. Lust is sin. Preferring the applause of man over the approval of God is sin. Yoking together with secular record companies and owners is sin.

And money is what stifles creativity. There is no money in being creative... it's too risky.

So if you want to understand why CCM as an industry is rotten to the core... you have to begin by looking at the wallet.

I would rather listen to a secular artist who is at least honest enough to say he's in it for the money than to listen to some "Christian" singer who says he gives God all the glory while he's signing autographs of his own pictures... or worse yet... autographing Bibles. (that practice turns my stomache)

Krispy

 2006/11/10 7:53
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
I have never seen them do this. They all look so sad,



Be careful with this... one thing I tell married couples in counceling is "Never say never, always, everyone and all" because it's hardly ever true.


AMEN!!
Krispy

 2006/11/10 7:55Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

tpique1 wrote:



The test of music shouldn't be style, but the effect it's having on us.. If we can't walk away from it and say, "God I give it to you, I don't need it, it's not the love of my heart, YOU ARE Lord," then it has become idolatry and a stumbling block to us. Music is for God, not for us.

And let me throw this wrench in while I'm at it if I may, God doesn't NEED us to play music to be worshipped! Did you know that? Can you worship Him WITHOUT music? If you can't, then perhaps music has too strong a pull on your heart. God is concerned with the adoration that is offered from our hearts, not our instruments.

Let me say that again, God is concerned with a heart of adoration and worship than what comes out of an instrument.

I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard through worship leaders I've worked with how they've been asked to play a conference, but when they get there they run into musicians who were haughty and uncooperative because they thought that they were the better musician. To some, it's a competition to be seen and noticed rather than invisible and surrendered.

I believe this is why hymns were big on WORDS and small on MUSIC. Because it was the words that led people to the throne of God, not the music. The music helped, yes, but it was what they were SAYING to God that led them there and not whether or not they liked the song or its style.

I implore with you, don't be like I was and let music become an idol in your life. If it has a hold on your heart then jettison it. Losing that intimacy with God is not worth the moment of pleasure.




Amen... I agree! It is a matter of the heart!

 2006/11/10 8:02Profile









 Re:

I agree too...

The issue of the lack of creativity in music seems to be stuck on a worship theme. Why is that?

Thats a legitimate question I'm asking. Am I the only one who simply enjoys music for what it is... does it always have to have regulations and limitations? To me, that stifles creativity as much as money does.

Is there no place in the Church for creative expression? God is a wonderful Creator... and since we are made in His image, wouldnt that suggest that we are created to be creative?

Krispy

 2006/11/10 8:28
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Hey Krispy,

With all due respect, I see a issue with many Christian popular artists that extends far beyond mere money. I think the lust for money and top ten Christian billboard ratings are but symptoms of a greater underlying disease: false conversion. I seriously doubt that more than 5% off these artists are truly born again by the Spirit of God. Worldliness simply [i]exudes[/i] from everythng they touch, from their "abstract" band names and enticing promotional images (all youth-geared) straight down to the actual music they perform. Having the "right words" means absolutely nothing. And most of the time, the words are so watered-down and limp that you would think they were singing about their girlfriends or boyfriends rather than God.

I see how these imposters have infiltrated the church, raped the ears of our youth with their impotent garbage that caters to fleshly emotions rather than true self-denial and holiness. And because they mention "Jesus" or "I love God", we are to allow this medium free reign in the church? We are so blind, and do our youth a great disservice by condoning this stuff. A newly-saved believer may not know any better (though they will very soon, if they are truly born-again), thinking all that glitters is gold, but [i]we[/i] the parents, the guardians, the prophets and priests of our families should be keeping watch over the temple gates. It is especially dangerous because these artists, I believe, [i]mean well[/i], and sincerly believe they are true Christians, but the truth is most of them are false converts, two-fold children of hell, encompassing land and sea to feed others their poison during these "Christian rock festivals", while denying a holy God and turning His grace into lasciviousness.

Many churches (mine included) have incorported this false-convert entertainment into the Sunday morning praise and worship agenda. Do you have any idea what it is like after communing with God all week long, bathing yourself in scripture and feasting on Puritanical commentaires...and then having to come to church on Sunday and listen to the unctionless clamor of the goats? The feeling is akin to biting down on tin foil. And the ones who enjoy these "songs" the most are the ones living in open sin, the unregenerate kids who think they are saved, who know all the words, have the CD's, have the posters pinned up to the walls in their bedroom. To them, this is true Chritianity! In their minds, because their emotions have formed a bond with the message of the music, they consider themselves saved. Speak of the glorious hymns of Wesley and Watts and they'll frown. "Hymns? You've got to be kidding. That stuff is so old and boring. Who listens to hymns anymore?" Ask them who the Wesley brothers were. They have no clue - nor do they care. And the parents are just so happy! They're happy that it's Skillet and not Metallica or Ozzy being pinned up. I sometimes believe (and I imagine many will disagree with me here) that the polluted worship of Christendom will cause more damage in the long run than the outright unbelieving secular rock and metal bands. Because poison is easier to avoid when someone leaves the label on the bottle.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/10 8:39Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Now... If I may, I would like to bring a little focus back this thread.

Most of y'all have been conversating with me long enough to know that I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote the modern CCM industry, and I do [b]not[/b] in any way promote most of those who perform CCM.

CCM, as it is today, is about money. Not God. Money. It is about finding singers that look and act like the world in order to sell CD's. Many of the women singers in CCM dress immodestly. Most of the performers are not accountable to any local fellowship. Many are extremely ecumenical, which indicates to me that they do not understand sound doctrine.

There are very few performers that I advocate. Steve Camp, Keith Green, people like that are the only ones I publicly promote to others.

Many will argue that the extreme worldliness in CCM today is because they have adopted the world's music. I do not think that is true. I know many local musicians who dont get paid a dime for their music, and they play modern music... and they are in it 100% for ministry, and they are some of the most on fire people you'd ever meet.

Whats the difference? Money.

Money is what has made CCM what it is today. Greed. Lust. Not music. Music is not sin. Love of money is sin. Greed is sin. Lust is sin. Preferring the applause of man over the approval of God is sin. Yoking together with secular record companies and owners is sin.

And money is what stifles creativity. There is no money in being creative... it's too risky.

So if you want to understand why CCM as an industry is rotten to the core... you have to begin by looking at the wallet.

I would rather listen to a secular artist who is at least honest enough to say he's in it for the money than to listen to some "Christian" singer who says he gives God all the glory while he's signing autographs of his own pictures... or worse yet... autographing Bibles. (that practice turns my stomache)

Krispy



Again... Amen!

 2006/11/10 8:43Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
[/b]PTywama3[/b] asked:

Quote:
Well, in any case, I wanna know something. When you are listening to music, do you generally go for style or content? I have to ask, because it really does make a bit of difference. I know you've stated that when you're at home (aloneish) with your wife, you might put on jazz, and I get the impression that an acoustic guitar or piano might be the extent of the "band" in the Sunday services you normally inhabit if someone's feeling overly zealous. Totally not sure on that one, but that's my impression. Aside from that, I really don't know if you've discussed much, really.



Content and style. If the content (lyrics) is garbage, then I dont consider it worth listening to. On the other hand, many Christians wont listen to Mozart's music because he was a pervert and drunk. Yet, I think his music is incredible. Easily my favorite classical composer. I dont care for opera... and his were all in languages I dont understand anyway. But his non-operetic compositions are some of the most beautiful music ever written. When I listen to it I dont think about "Wow... Mozart was a pervert." I enjoy the music for what it is... beautiful. Creative. Innovative. It's the music I'm listening to, not the composer. God gave him an incredible gift, and he used it. I wish I could say that for most Christians. When I listen, I'm enjoying the gift that God gave Mozart, not Mozart himself. Does that make sense?

Now, if Mozart put English words to his music, and the singer was singing about perverted wicked things... I would not listen. I dont care for Opera, so I dont listen to his Opera's... so thats a moot point for me.

We havent really discussed instrumentation in a worship service. I know I have said some forms of music are not appropriate for worship. For instance, I like a band from Sweden called Narnia. ( http://www.narniaworld.com/ ) I enjoy their music stylistically, and I think the content is fantastic. There is no doubt that they love God. Some would think their music may be a little "dark" at times, but they also tackle subjects in their lyrics that your typical Top 40 Christian glitz-pop singer isnt going to come near. Hey... Keith Green's music was "dark" at times. Listen the his song "The Sheep And The Goats" sometime.

But Narnia's music is not something that will lead a fellowship of believers into a time of quiet worship. Thats not it's intent.

As far as instrumentation, I set no limits on what instruments should be used in worship. Psalms lists all sorts of instruments that were to be used in the temple. Yea... if you can play one of those musical wood saws... and you play it unto the Lord... go for it. Just play it skillfully is all I ask.

In our fellowships we generally only have accoustic guitars, but thats because our fellowships meet in people's living rooms. A 6 piece band just isnt practical.

Does that answer your questions? I know I said I wanted to stick to music and creativity... but you asked this, and I wanted to answer.

But in a way, this does relate because we are talking about creativity. So grab your wood saw, and lets worship our Creator!

By the way, son, I'm only 39. Cut me some slack on the mom and pops thing!! LOL

Krispy



Agreed, Krispy. It should be content. I love music and I always have. I think why I am so passionate about what I believe on this thread is because I grew up a PK. Being a PK cause me to want the attention of being up front, so I myslef, wanted to start a band. I loved the idea of getting people's attention... while giving glory to God. After several years of trying and failing, the Lord really began to work in me and show me that worship isn't about me at all. God gave me the creativity to use it for HIS glory and to only have the things I do with my hands, mouth, and attitude be focused on him. Since I began learning these things, I decided that starting a band would not be for me, because I knew it would be too easy to slip back into it being about me. So..... in saying that... I turned to band promoting for a while because I wanted to promote the bands that ultimately bring a smile to God's face and Him saying, "Hey angels! That's my son(s)/daughter(s) down there!
(I'm not focusing on the band promoting these days, only because I have a heart cry for revival and want to see it come, so I decided to focus my talents elswhere, other then band promoting)

Despite what Ginnyrose feels and others think, there are bands whose content (with their focus totally on God)can draw a person to their knees in tears, because of the very presence of God entering the room. The reason I left style out of this paragraph, till now, is because, I have seen it happen with rock music, I have seen it happen with hymns, and according to the Scriptures, the Lord delighted with...

Quote:
Psalm 149
1 Praise the LORD.
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.

4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.

5 Let the saints rejoice in this honor
and sing for joy on their beds.

6 May the praise of God be in their mouths
and a double-edged sword in their hands,...

This is the glory of all his saints.
Praise the LORD.



Oh wait, even though TRUTH tells me that I can write a new song, I suppose I can't, because I must worship in Spirit and truth... as some would say! And the dancing... I guess that isn't spirit and truth... even though it delights the Lord! Let's not forget the chaoticness of the TAMBOURINE and HARP! Has everyone forgot what they sound like? Picture it in your head... doesn't it sound like "not-so-flowing," because of their totally two differt sounds and how they are played??!

Let's not forget:

Quote:
Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.



Hmmm....! Praise him with the CLASH OF CYMBOLS and the RESOUNDING CYMBOLS... yeah... your right... YOUR "mellow-reverence-spirit-and-truth" interpretation is the key, so this couldn't delight the Lord... even though it is Scripturally sound that it does!!! But your Bible with all of that cut out, I guess is the TRUTH!

And then it says, "Let everything that hath breath praise the Lord." So, I guess we could eliminate all lions, elephants, monkeys, and other animals whose loud noises delight the Lord! After all, why would God want to delight in his creativity!? So, why would He delight in the creative talents he gave us. But I guess the whole Spirit and Truth things disqualifies all of the loud music, dancing, and shouting in Psalms!

Ok, so yes, you can all sense some frustration here from me. I am not directing it at any one person or anything. Everyone keeps mentioning some Scripture in their own arguments but neglects to see all the other Scriptures that other bring up. To say that your Scripture is truth and my Scripture is false, is calling God himself a liar, and saying that David was an "inhibitor of worship!"

I could show you hundreds of Scripture where God is glorified in creative worship, but I won't take up the space showing you here, because after all, you have a Bible and can do the research yourself, right? Or is the "Worship God in Spirit and truth" verse, the only chapeter you have of the Bible. If that's the case, I could send you the WHOLE Bible! Let me know!


 2006/11/10 8:47Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Hey Krispy,

With all due respect, I see a issue with many Christian popular artists that extends far beyond mere money. I think the lust for money and top ten Christian billboard ratings are but symptoms of a greater underlying disease: false conversion. I serioulsy doubt that more than 5% off these artists are truly born again by the Spirit of God. Worldliness simply [i]exudes[/i] from everythng they touch, from their "abstract" band names and enticing promotional images (all youth-geared) straight down to the actual music they perform. Having the "right words" means absolutely nothing. And most of the time, the words are so watered-down and limp that you would think they were singing about their girlfriends or boyfriends rather than God.

I see how these imposters have infiltrated the church, raped the ears of our youth with their impotent garbage that caters to fleshly emotions rather than true self-denial and holiness. And because they mention "Jesus" or "I love God", we are to allow this medium free reign in the church? We are so blind, and do our youth a great disservice by condoning this stuff. A newly-saved believer may not know any better (though they will very soon, if they are truly born-again), thinking all that glitters is gold, but [i]we[/i] the parents, the guardians, the prophets and priests of our families should be keeping watch over the temple gates. It is especially dangerous because these artists, I believe, [i]mean well[/i], and sincerly believe they are true Christians, but the truth is most of them are false converts, two-fold children of hell, encompassing land and sea to feed others their poison during these "Christian rock festivals", while denying a holy God and turning His grace into lasciviousness.

Many churches (mine included) have incorported this false-convert entertainment into the Sunday morning praise and worship agenda. Do you have any idea what it is like after communing with God all week long, bathing yourself in scripture and feasting on Puritanical commentaires...and then having to come to church on Sunday and listen to the unctionless clamor of the goats? The feeling is akin to biting down on tin foil. And the ones who enjoy these "songs" the most are the ones living in open sin, they know all the words, have the CD's, have the posters pinned up to the walls in their bedroom. And the parents are happy! They're happy that it's not Metallica or Ozzy being pinned up. I sometimes believe (and I imagine many will disagree with me here) that the polluted worship of Christendom will cause more damage in the long run than the outright unbelieving secular rock and metal bands. Because poison is easier to avoid accidentally drinking when someone leaves the label on the bottle.

Brother Paul



I agree Paul, but to reiterate what you were saying... "There might be 5% who are truly born of the Spirit of God..." that's a lot of bands in relationship to the world's populous! Now, should there be more? You bet! It should be at 100%! But we should not neglect that "5% or more" and dump them into the same category as everyone else!

 2006/11/10 8:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
With all due respect, I see a issue with many Christian popular artists that extends far beyond mere money. I think the lust for money and top ten Christian billboard ratings are but symptoms of a greater underlying disease: false conversion.



My brother Paul... I couldnt agree with your post more. A resounding Amen!!

I completely understand your feeling of let down when attending church. In many cases today's churches pull down the serious believers instead of building them up. It's part of the reason I left the traditional church format for house churches.

Few are those who find it...

Krispy

 2006/11/10 8:52









 Re:

Ben... I agree with you too...

Some may be confused by how I can agree with both Paul and Ben, but I am able to seperate the two things.

Wood is not an idol. But if I take a piece of wood and carve a monkey out of it, tell everone it's the "god of bananas", and everyone worships it so that we can have a bumper crop of bananas this year... thats idolary.

Music, to me, is like wood. It's part of creation. It's there for us to enjoy. It's there for us to use for the glory of God. He wants us to be creative with it because that's the image of Him that He created us to be. But we take it and make an idol of it. We use it in place of God.

It's not the music... it's not the creativity thats wrong. It's us! It's what we make it. Is carving a monkey out of a piece of wood wrong? No! Of course not. But making that monkey more important than God, or treating that monkey as if it were God... thats the sin.

And thats where we get off track with music, and so many other things.

Krispy

 2006/11/10 9:01





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