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tpique1
Member



Joined: 2005/12/13
Posts: 25


 Re:



I hope you don't mind if I get in on this conversation. I'm a little new around here. This is also a little long, but I hope you read it. I ran a Christian Rock station for a while and it's a little different BEHIND the music than it is in front of it like the average person is.

Going back to the original poster's article, I think I agree with the original premise, but he has taken liberty in certain points.

Rock is distinguished from other music, as is punk rock, hip-hop, and other genres that have evolved parallel to or out of it.

The biggest problem I have found with much of modern music is that its first aim is to feed the flesh not the spirit. This can easily be seen in how arguments arise out of discussing it. The fact that it even has to be defended should indicate its pull on our lives sometimes.

The argument regarding music always ends in a stark debate. This alone shows the condition of our hearts. Some of us have become so enamored with music that it has even become an idol in our lives. There were many times in my own life, especially during the radio years that I was absolutely obsessed with the music. I couldn't get enough of it.

But this is the draw of music as a tool of the enemy sometimes; to draw us away from a relationship with God and into a place of self-centeredness. Remember Adam and Eve? Satan took the emphasis off of God and put it on them. He made Adam and Eve focus on what they wanted instead of being content with what they had. God had given them everything in the garden but the one tree. But the devil convinced them that that tree was the ONE THING they NEEDED! So, by him turning their focus to themselves instead of God, they disobeyed God and sinned.

The devil still works that way, and I believe he does it through music. Our focus becomes so much about the music and whether or not we will like it, that we can't even enter into God's presence anymore. We have taken the focus off of God where it belongs and put it on us, just like Adam & Eve did. And in doing this, we sin.

I have family members who won't go to a church unless it has "good music"! That's their test. Not the Word of God or the Spirit of God, but the music!

The test of music shouldn't be style, but the effect it's having on us.. If we can't walk away from it and say, "God I give it to you, I don't need it, it's not the love of my heart, YOU ARE Lord," then it has become idolatry and a stumbling block to us. Music is for God, not for us.

And let me throw this wrench in while I'm at it if I may, God doesn't NEED us to play music to be worshipped! Did you know that? Can you worship Him WITHOUT music? If you can't, then perhaps music has too strong a pull on your heart. God is concerned with the adoration that is offered from our hearts, not our instruments.

Let me say that again, God is concerned with a heart of adoration and worship than what comes out of an instrument.

Do you know why God could get more glory out of musicless worship than with it? Because often times with music WE get more glory from playing it than He gets from receiving it.

I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard through worship leaders I've worked with how they've been asked to play a conference, but when they get there they run into musicians who were haughty and uncooperative because they thought that they were the better musician. To some, it's a competition to be seen and noticed rather than invisible and surrendered.

I believe this is why hymns were big on WORDS and small on MUSIC. Because it was the words that led people to the throne of God, not the music. The music helped, yes, but it was what they were SAYING to God that led them there and not whether or not they liked the song or its style.

Notice that one focuses on God, the other focuses on "me". Like with Adam & Eve, if the devil can take my emphasis off of God and put it on "me" then he's won.

I implore with you, don't be like I was and let music become an idol in your life. If it has a hold on your heart then jettison it. Losing that intimacy with God is not worth the moment of pleasure.






_________________
Tom

 2006/11/9 22:16Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

You know, when I walk through a Christian bookstore and see the flashy CD covers enlarged like posters and hanging crooked on the wall, the band members standing there wearing all black, grungy jeans, messed-up hair, looking like a bunch of mean thugs...I am completely turned off. Is this reflecting the purity of Christ? No, this is 100% world. It just screams WORLD. I believe these bands are mainly for the appeasement of false converts, because, let's face it, they seem to attract them. I have yet to see a mature Christian walking in holiness and who is fully surrendered to God listening to these radio bands and being edified or fed by them. I mean, can you picture Leonard Ravenhill worshipping God to their music? I can't even stand being in Christian bookstores for long just because their awful music is so annoying. I tell my wife I have to leave. Seriously, I'd rather listen to secular stuff if I had to. Put on Pavorotti or whatever, just take off this ugly, worldy, musically lame-sounding misrepresentation of God's majesty.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/9 23:36Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

It is true what Paul is saying here.

You know whenever you return from traveling overseas and enter the customs area for entry into the country you'll see a great big sign telling you to throw all foreign fruit in the trash bins. Apparently there are some standards or regulations to follow...

Not so in the church these days...our customs agents let everything through the door...that is after they've stamped it "Christian". Sensuality, greed, ambition, fashion...it's all gets a stamp. In many churches they actually let big stinky elephants come right on in without any concern for community health and let the thing plant it's big saggy carcass right on the stage next to the wooden cross...and in still other churches the management will build stalls for these wild donkeys where people have to eat. The preachers will even share their pulpits with these beasts. Of course all of these unclean things and political animals foul any fragrance of worship that would bring the Lord pleasure, but the congregation grows so used to the smells they don't even notice...

All the world is a sanctified oyster once in church.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/10 0:04Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I am thankful that SI does have diligent customs agents. ;-)


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/10 0:04Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
In many churches they actually let big stinky elephants come right on in without any concern for community health and let the thing plant it's big saggy carcass right on the stage next to the wooden cross...and in still other churches the management will build stalls for these wild donkeys where people have to eat.



Brilliant. What a visual. One big, stinking petting zoo, a flying circus. I'm so tired of it. I'm so tired of the foul-smelling goats with their stupid, lifeless programs and trendy-sounding music that kills rather than gives life. How much more before the Spirit reforms the church? Before whips come smashing down on the back of the elephant? I reckon there'll be a real stampede on that day when the Lord begins tearing down the stalls and draining the watering holes.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/10 0:46Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Awesome completion on the pass brother.

Quote:
How much more before the Spirit reforms the church? Before whips come smashing down on the back of the elephant?



My eyes fill with tears at the thought...may this be the very hour that the Lord comes in with a fury and chases all these filthy animals and these greedy sellers out of his house.

May this be the time when desciples remember it was written;

ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME.

Our fear that the Lord may visit us with fire is being overtaken by a greater fear that he could elect to never visit us with fire again...

God, in mercy remember us.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/11/10 1:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
In many churches they actually let big stinky elephants come right on in without any concern for community health and let the thing plant it's big saggy carcass right on the stage next to the wooden cross...and in still other churches the management will build stalls for these wild donkeys where people have to eat.



Brilliant. What a visual. One big, stinking petting zoo, a flying circus. I'm so tired of it. I'm so tired of the foul-smelling goats with their stupid, lifeless programs and trendy-sounding music that kills rather than gives life. How much more before the Spirit reforms the church? Before whips come smashing down on the back of the elephant? I reckon there'll be a real stampede on that day when the Lord begins tearing down the stalls and draining the watering holes.



....and I thought my use of the words "inhibits worship" was sufficiently strong language. Wow! Its good to know I don't stand alone. I was beginning to fear as Elijah.

Using whips sound like whats needed if this zoo is to be removed from the holy place. As with politcal opponents: Its getting to be more of them than us. The reason needs be asked, Why?
:-(

 2006/11/10 7:02









 Re:

Well... let me start the day off by saying that I was a little harsh on Ormly.

Ormly, I apologize for asking you not to post on this particular thread. While I do feel that you're not really understanding most of what I am saying... I think a better way that I could have handled it yesterday would have been to ask you to refrain from casting out comments that appear to be judgmental.

Let me explain...

In other words... try to find a way of expressing yourself without casting a blanket over everything. I think we err when we dismiss all contemporary music, or all books, or all anything.

This thread was never meant to be about worship, and while I certain understand that there is a certain ebb and flow to conversations... this one went waaaaay off course. The thing that bothers me is that there were many here who had some good things to say about artistic creativity... but everytime the conversation started to get back on course it would only be diverted again into something that wasnt related to the topic.

So now we end up with 16 or so pages on this thread... with very little of it relating to the topic.

Ormly, my brother, I want your input on this thread as it relates to the topic. You do ask searching questions, and thats good. I just ask that you dont draw such broad conclusions about people and things. You've drawn some extremely broad conclusions about me which were very wrong. I've written almost 2,500 posts on this forum on a plethura of issues... but you seem to have made your conclusions about me based on my taste of music.

All I'm asking is that you not be so quick to do that. And try and stay on topic.

Brother Ormly, I love ya! I really do. We've even joked a little on this thread. I'm a nice guy, as I'm sure you are. We are not enemies... we are on the same team, but we play different positions. I'm a linebacker, and you're a wide-out. I like to blitz and bang heads... you like to be elusive and make people think. But the fact is, we are teammates. We're working toward the same goal.

Hope we can score! What do ya say?

Krispy

 2006/11/10 7:14









 Re:

[/b]PTywama3[/b] asked:

Quote:
Well, in any case, I wanna know something. When you are listening to music, do you generally go for style or content? I have to ask, because it really does make a bit of difference. I know you've stated that when you're at home (aloneish) with your wife, you might put on jazz, and I get the impression that an acoustic guitar or piano might be the extent of the "band" in the Sunday services you normally inhabit if someone's feeling overly zealous. Totally not sure on that one, but that's my impression. Aside from that, I really don't know if you've discussed much, really.



Content and style. If the content (lyrics) is garbage, then I dont consider it worth listening to. On the other hand, many Christians wont listen to Mozart's music because he was a pervert and drunk. Yet, I think his music is incredible. Easily my favorite classical composer. I dont care for opera... and his were all in languages I dont understand anyway. But his non-operetic compositions are some of the most beautiful music ever written. When I listen to it I dont think about "Wow... Mozart was a pervert." I enjoy the music for what it is... beautiful. Creative. Innovative. It's the music I'm listening to, not the composer. God gave him an incredible gift, and he used it. I wish I could say that for most Christians. When I listen, I'm enjoying the gift that God gave Mozart, not Mozart himself. Does that make sense?

Now, if Mozart put English words to his music, and the singer was singing about perverted wicked things... I would not listen. I dont care for Opera, so I dont listen to his Opera's... so thats a moot point for me.

We havent really discussed instrumentation in a worship service. I know I have said some forms of music are not appropriate for worship. For instance, I like a band from Sweden called Narnia. ( http://www.narniaworld.com/ ) I enjoy their music stylistically, and I think the content is fantastic. There is no doubt that they love God. Some would think their music may be a little "dark" at times, but they also tackle subjects in their lyrics that your typical Top 40 Christian glitz-pop singer isnt going to come near. Hey... Keith Green's music was "dark" at times. Listen the his song "The Sheep And The Goats" sometime.

But Narnia's music is not something that will lead a fellowship of believers into a time of quiet worship. Thats not it's intent.

As far as instrumentation, I set no limits on what instruments should be used in worship. Psalms lists all sorts of instruments that were to be used in the temple. Yea... if you can play one of those musical wood saws... and you play it unto the Lord... go for it. Just play it skillfully is all I ask.

In our fellowships we generally only have accoustic guitars, but thats because our fellowships meet in people's living rooms. A 6 piece band just isnt practical.

Does that answer your questions? I know I said I wanted to stick to music and creativity... but you asked this, and I wanted to answer.

But in a way, this does relate because we are talking about creativity. So grab your wood saw, and lets worship our Creator!

By the way, son, I'm only 39. Cut me some slack on the mom and pops thing!! LOL

Krispy

 2006/11/10 7:32
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

mamaluk wrote:
Quote:
So are you saying that just because I love Christian rock music, that my hearts desire for revival and the fact that I and a buddy constantly pray to see it come, is a bad fruit? Wow! Such harsh judgement! You know not my heart but that I am a sinner. I know not that it is wise to base your judgement upon your intrepretations! We could go on and on in arguing what God sees as edifying and holy worship, because of the Scripture you present and the Scriptures I present! We are all right to a degree, but ultimatly, thank God, it isn't up to you to interpret my heart in worship, it is up to God!



BenBrockway,

Please don't be so sensitive, my post was mainly in response to Ormly and Krispy, because I agree with both of them in some ways. As for you, I don't even think I read your posts.

Rock and roll music is fine, classical music is fine, for enjoyment purposes, but for worship, one must comply to those verses in John. If rock and roll music brings your heart and mind to Christ, indeed, God alone can judge. One can not be too careful nowadays, for there are so many false jesus out there and so many false preachers and teachers out there..you know..

No harsh judgment at all, it is GOD who said that we MUST worship Him in spirit and in truth. Someone else brought out a great point, is music even necessary? In fact, that's my take on this.

I listen to great hymnals throughout the day, but I don't worship with music at all. For I too, have long left the church buildings for quite some time now.

Ben, normally I'm always prone to apologizing to whomever I offend, but I wouldn't to you in this case, because I had no clue that you would take this so personally. Meaning, I had no intent to offend you at all.

I don't suppose I need to apologize to all those who worship with rock and roll music, for if that's the case, then they will have to apologize back to me for worshipping with no music.

sigh.. makes no sense !?

EDIT: No, I won't ever throw out any part of the Bible, I did mention the Word, worshipping in God's Spririt and God's Truth ( Word )! :)



No apology neccasary. I am only sensitive about this subject, because this is an age old argument and will continue to be so! I find it interesting that people say, "We shouldn't have music," when in Scripture, all over the place, there was music. People also say, "We should just stick with the hymns," when, ironically, those where too contemporary back in the day, too! Especially when some of the hymns were written to the beat of bar music!!! I just think it's all stupid.

I agree that we should worship in Spirit and in truth.

I would consider this truth:

Awesome God
Rich Mullins

When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain't just putting on the ritz
(Our God is an awesome God)
There's thunder in His footsteps
And lightning in His fists
(Our God is an awesome God)
And the Lord wasn't joking
When He kicked 'em out of Eden
It wasn't for no reason
That He shed His blood
His return is very close
And so you better be believing that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

And when the sky was starless
In the void of the night
(Our God is an awesome God)
He spoke into the darkness
And created the light
(Our God is an awesome God)
Judgement and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not
Too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
He reigns from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God (Our God is an awesome God)
He reigns from heaven above (He reigns from heaven above)
With wisdom, power, and love (With wisdom, power, and love)
Our God is an awesome God

Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God

This is also Truth (it's almost Psalm-like):

Skillet
(You are My Hope)
Times are hard
Times have changed
Don't you say
But I keep holding on to you
It's hard to keep the faith alive day to day
Leaning on the strength I've found in you
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Far beyond what I can see or comprehend
Etching your eternity in me
Nations stream and angels sing, "Jesus reigns"
And every knee bows down
You're the hope of all the Earth

You are my hope
You are my strength
You're everything
Everything I need
You are my hope
You are my life
You are my hope
You are my hope

Carry on and I sing of how
You love and I love you now
All the times that I start to sink
You come and you rescue me
You are my hope
You are my hope



Both are rock songs and both proclaim timeless truths and are very worshipful.

 2006/11/10 7:53Profile





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