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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The decline of Secular AND Christian music

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 Re:

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BenBrockway wrote:
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Ormly wrote:
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Why must we get soo legalistic about how we worship our CREATOR who made us individuals with creativity????????



Legalistic? Where/when does holiness come into your asking about "soo legalistic", or does it?? Is it even considered in your "creativity"?



Quote:
You can be holy and be creative in worship and adoration to God. Why must there be walls when one comes into the holy presence of God?



Why?? Ask Him and when the answer doesn't come in a way not quite clear enough for the careless, DON"T PRESUME that what you do is ok. Err on the side of desiring to please and honor the Father, not with the attitude, "He sees my heart" and "man has no right to judge me". Never forget that you have influence, whether you like it or not. Don't be shabby.

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As I said, I know there are times when there need to be quiet or mellow moments as we enter into the Holy presence of the Lord, but must it be mellow 90%, 95%, or 98% of the time?



That's the business of the Holy Spirit. Are you sufficiently sensitive to His presence? If not, again, DON"T PRESUME. Be like Esther.

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Again, let me reitirate the several Psalms that say to shout to the Lord, dance, clang cymbols, and so on. Why must we limit our worship to our Creator when He, Himself, gave us the freedom to come into his presence, not only in reverence, but also in thanksgiving, praise, dancing, shouting, and loud instruments?



First, you have to be in His presence. Dare I say the prescribed way is absent? Where are your psalm singers as in the days genuine worship directed to Him, that He could bless? There is an order to this that is blessable. Step out of the order and you step out of His blessing. Carelessness, sloppiness of dress, presumption, and downright disrespect for His sanctuary and what we presume to be ok, has left Him out entirely.

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Are you limiting the ways in which God can consider things holy?



No. He has done that. First you must be a worshipper. If you aren't, stay home. Find out why.

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If you can, can you show me Scripture that is anti-dancing, anti-cymbols, anti-stringed instruments, and anti-singing in the presence of the Lord in worship and praise to Him?



No. Can you show by scripture where playing sounds indistinguishable from the "whoring" ways of the world is acceptable in His sanctuary; the clashing of cymbals, the incessant beating of the string instruments to tunes with no beauty to them, where the shout of joy, if there is any, is replaced with superficial screaming to an emotional high? Show me with scripture where a set of stage drums are used drowning out/ inhibiting one's attempt at worship, should he/she even desire to. In fact, show me drums, period. Where is the anointed order of praise that leads people into blessable worship? Where did musicians ever use a microphone to make themselves stand out above the other praisers in scripture? Where did praisers ever stand out from other praisers? Show me using scriptures where feedback monitors were ever needed in leading the congregation that sought to praise God. If you can't find these things in scripture its quite evident they weren't needed. So why do we use them today except as a badge to bring attention to a stage full of performers who seek the attention; who need the self-gratification for being able, in their estimation, of igniting praise in others by the "soul-ish stirring sounds" they play. I dare not call it music unto the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? ---- He isn't. However, society, our desensitised culture, can no longer make that distinction, thanks to the little foxes.


:-(

 2006/11/9 7:14









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How do you dress when you go to church?



If you knew anything about me... you would know that I dont "go to church". Most of the time church comes to me.

I left the traditional church a long time ago. We have small churches that meet in homes (remember? like in Acts?). They are kept small on purpose... if one gets too large to meet into a home, it morphs into two groups.

Krispy

 2006/11/9 8:25
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Krispy,

Great to hear there are other's here who fellowship in the homes as the church!


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/11/9 10:36Profile









 Re:

There are more of us than people think! There is freedom!

Krispy

 2006/11/9 11:50
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:


No. Can you show by scripture where playing sounds indistinguishable from the "whoring" ways of the world is acceptable in His sanctuary; the clashing of cymbals, the incessant beating of the string instruments to tunes with no beauty to them, where the shout of joy, if there is any, is replaced with superficial screaming to an emotional high? Show me with scripture where a set of stage drums are used drowning out/ inhibiting one's attempt at worship, should he/she even desire to. In fact, show me drums, period. Where is the anointed order of praise that leads people into blessable worship? Where did musicians ever use a microphone to make themselves stand out above the other praisers in scripture? Where did praisers ever stand out from other praisers? Show me using scriptures where feedback monitors were ever needed in leading the congregation that sought to praise God. If you can't find these things in scripture its quite evident they weren't needed. So why do we use them today except as a badge to bring attention to a stage full of performers who seek the attention; who need the self-gratification for being able, in their estimation, of igniting praise in others by the "soul-ish stirring sounds" they play. I dare not call it music unto the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? ---- He isn't. However, society, our desensitised culture, can no longer make that distinction, thanks to the little foxes.




Wow. Then I am presuming that God's gift of intelligence in creating new and wonderful things is an abomination? Quite contradictory, don't you think? It's is interesting that this silly argument has been waring amongst believers since nearly the beginning of time! Remember Micah's disgust over David, and yet:
2 Samuel 6
The Ark Brought to Jerusalem
Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it, and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.
David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.
16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"
21 David said to Michal, ***"It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD.**** ****22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. " ****

Now, is there a time for this?: Hebrews 12

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."


You betcha. There is a time for both. I love this next Scripture:

Psalm 68
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. A song.
1 May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
3. But may the righteous be glad
and rejoice before God;
may they be happy and joyful.
4 Sing to God, sing praise to his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds [a]—
his name is the LORD—
and rejoice before him.
19 Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior,
who daily bears our burdens.
Selah
20 Our God is a God who saves;
from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.
24 Your procession has come into view, O God, the procession of my God and King into the sanctuary.
***25 In front are the singers, after them the musicians; with them are the maidens playing tambourines. ***
***26 Praise God in the great congregation; praise the LORD in the assembly of Israel.***
28 Summon your power, O God; show us your strength, O God, as you have done before.
32 Sing to God, O kingdoms of the earth, sing praise to the Lord,
Selah
33 to him who rides the ancient skies above, who thunders with mighty voice.
34 Proclaim the power of God, whose majesty is over Israel, whose power is in the skies.
35 You are awesome, O God, in your sanctuary;
the God of Israel gives power and strength to his people.
Praise be to God!


So, no worshippers in front? What does verse 25 and 26 say? Singers and musicians in front of a congregation in the assembly. Hmmmm!?

We can go on and on in our arguments, but you know what? It isn't worth it. How we worship, when our hearts are pure, is not for one another to judge. If we do, then we are putting conditions before God and we are telling God how He can and cannot be worshipped.

Can I ask if you know your way of worship is an ABSOLUTE? Or might it be your own interpretation of Scripture? Are you the sayer of all that is good, pure and holy before God, or is it God who has the beginning and last word?

Remember this: God created all things good. He created man with individual talents to Worship Him with those talents. Music is not satanic. God created ways for Himself to be worshipped. Remember that if we do not worship, the rocks will cry out. Does it say that the rocks will whisper? No it says that the rocks will CRY OUT. Now if a rock is a non-breathing thing, and it will CRY OUT, then why must we, his most beloved of creation, stay mellow when it comes to giving God the glory He deserves with all our might?

The funny thing is, is your children's children will argue some of these same arguments, but they are worthless things to argue, as it is not a Salvation issue. Do our hearts have to be right and pure in how we worship? Sure! Are there some whose hearts are not? Sure. However, must you include all forms of undignified (as David was) forms of worship as unholy?

I mean, check this out. David was undignified before the people, he sinned and tried covering up his sin with another sin, and yet, in the end, he was still considered a man after God's own heart!! Hmmm... An undignified worshipping sinner after God's own heart...

 2006/11/9 12:01Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:


Show me with scripture where a set of stage drums are used drowning out/ inhibiting one's attempt at worship, should he/she even desire to. In fact, show me drums, period. Where is the anointed order of praise that leads people into blessable worship? Where did musicians ever use a microphone to make themselves stand out above the other praisers in scripture? Where did praisers ever stand out from other praisers? Show me using scriptures where feedback monitors were ever needed in leading the congregation that sought to praise God. If you can't find these things in scripture its quite evident they weren't needed. So why do we use them today except as a badge to bring attention to a stage full of performers who seek the attention; who need the self-gratification for being able, in their estimation, of igniting praise in others by the "soul-ish stirring sounds" they play. I dare not call it music unto the Lord. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? ---- He isn't. However, society, our desensitised culture, can no longer make that distinction, thanks to the little foxes.

:-(




Show me in the beginning of Genesis where Adam and Eve worship with a Lyre or other stringed instruments other then the harp because it says here: Genesis 4
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 ***His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute.*** 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron.
At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

Since time moved forward, an not backwards and cultures shifted and changed and new ideas came into place out of creativity, I guess you are calling David and his worshippers, "INHIBITORS?"

I wonder how David feels about that? Or even God for that matter, since David was a man after God's own heart!!!!!!

 2006/11/9 12:14Profile









 Re:

I'm glad we dont have to live by the OT. I dont think I could keep up with everything.

Ormly, you claim you're not a legalist, but your words on this thread betray you. You seem to be fashioning your New Covenant life after the Old Covenant way.

Feel free to do that, if you wish. I would prefer to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We have freedom. Not freedom to sin, or live in a way that is not holy... but freedom from the yoke of the Law.

You want to sandwich people into a little space and say "this is the only way to worship". But you seem to forget that your way of worship wont work for those in China who meet in caves. It wont work for that tribe in Africa. It works great in your westernized format... but God isnt an American.

God is a creative God. Get up some morning and watch the sun come up. Sometimes I drive up on the Blue Ridge Parkway near my house and watch the sun come up over Cold Mountain. Oh man... how spectacular. So many colors. So many sounds.

Then I come back down from the mountain and someone wants to tell me that God doesnt want us to worship Him creatively? No, that doesnt make sense to me. All things done in order, of course. But rigidly and with no thought or creativity? No... that goes against God's very personality.

I know you'll rip my words apart and make them mean things that they dont, and put words in my mouth... you're very good at it. But I think most folks reading this (who have actually taken the time to get to know me and understand me) will get it.

Krispy

 2006/11/9 12:17
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Ultimately, what is at hand here is that your INTERPRETATION of Scripture differs from my interpretation of Scripture, so is it right for you or I to judge another’s heart in their form of worship? Or is that up to God, the receiver of this worship?

 2006/11/9 12:28Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I would prefer to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We have freedom. Not freedom to sin, or live in a way that is not holy... but freedom from the yoke of the Law.

You want to sandwich people into a little space and say "this is the only way to worship". But you seem to forget that your way of worship wont work for those in China who meet in caves. It wont work for that tribe in Africa. It works great in your westernized format... but God isnt an American.

God is a creative God. Get up some morning and watch the sun come up. Sometimes I drive up on the Blue Ridge Parkway near my house and watch the sun come up over Cold Mountain. Oh man... how spectacular. So many colors. So many sounds.

Then I come back down from the mountain and someone wants to tell me that God doesnt want us to worship Him creatively? No, that doesnt make sense to me. All things done in order, of course. But rigidly and with no thought or creativity? No... that goes against God's very personality.

Krispy



Hallelujiah!!!!! This is exactly the point!
Thank you Krispy!

 2006/11/9 12:32Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

Krispy,

WONDERFUL FREEDOM! Praise the Living God!


_________________
Neil Long

 2006/11/9 13:46Profile





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