| Poster | Thread | mamaluk
Member
Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524
| | Re: Spirits of contention | |
How can one contend for the Truth with out the spirit of contention? (the godly kind) :) From Paul to Luther..to.. , contended for Truth with likekind spirit. Think of my biggest hero, Luther, (yeah, I have a couple of those too), these are all men of contention. When I followed this thread, which I participated a little bit, I can appreciate a few of the brothers here contending for Christ's Work, while a few contend for Finney's works.
For sure, the more one loves Christ, the more intense one will become in apologetics and polemics, in the attempt to restore the Truth.
I contended for the honor of Christ's name once, and was reproved, and it was rather strange, that was the first time I didn't feel fear, praise God, I know God has been using SI to chisel fear out of me a lot. ( I'm sort of a big mouse in these things). I understand what Olan was saying in regard to speaking from both sides of the mouth, because I did that a lot, so that I won't sound offensive, so that I won't look bad, so that I won't be hated, so that I, I , I, I.....
I don't know any of you really, except through my tiny computer screen and in spirit, but I appreciate it whenever someone takes the time to defend the Truth at the cost of being reproved, rebuked and mocked.
My 'heros' of the past, are such as Mueller, Whitefield, the Puritan writers, Luther, Calvin..should anyone bring to my attention of their errors with the prove of of Scripture, I'd definitely say to that person "right on, brother, right on" and praise God. Besides, most of these heroic figures or "spiritual fathers" were mere sinners (some saved, some probably not)like ourselves, why defend their errors,[i] whether their errors are found in the entirety of their works or spread out in subtilty of bits and pieces?[/i]
Please remind ourselves, ALL human beings err, the more they write, the more mistakes they make, however, heresies come with satanic instruction, I do believe and must be refuted and denounced.
GOD told us to study [i]HIS WORD,[/i] not man' words, this perhaps is why Christendom is such a mess ! People spend more time reading man's words than God's Word.
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|  2006/10/19 10:54 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Mamaluk,
Quote:
Please remind ourselves, ALL human beings err, the more they write, the more mistakes they make, however, heresies come with satanic instruction, I do believe and must be refuted and denounced.
I agree. I think we all would also agree that we need to stand for truth. I don't like to use the saying, but I almost have to here, we just can't afford to "throw the baby out with the bath water." I am thankful for Luther also. Yet, I have to disagree with his position on things like the book of James [i]not[/i] being canonical. Or his tractate [i]On the Jews and their lies[/i] which arguably was antisemetic. And this grace is the same grace I wish to extend to Finney and others. You don't have to look long to find error sometimes. But can we give grace to those with whom we disagree and yet still take our stands on Truth? Imagine if I were to put up a thread 'Luther Criticism' or 'Calvin Criticism' or 'Wesley Criticism'. Those who are really familiar with their works will have points of disagreement. Just some topics that come to mind we have discussed at length here on SI over the last few years: Monergism, synergism, Calvinism, Arminianism, Pelagianism, baptism, Puritainism, Pentecostalism, infralapsarianism, supralapsarianism, and many other 'isms'. ;-)
There was a good article shared here a few weeks ago called [url=http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/DealWithThoseWhoDiffer.htm]Dealing With Those Who Differ From Us. It was written from a Puritain perspective. [/url] I hope all would give it a read.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/10/19 11:19 | Profile | OverSeer
Member
Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama
| | Re: | | Mike,
I regret my spirit of contention. I wish there was a way to "guard the doctrine", to "contend earnestly for the faith", to "destroy speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God", to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ", without appearing contentious. I'm puzzled by your comment: Quote:
The other is the spirit of your contentions. Have far less a problem with men 'speaking out of both sides of their mouth' than the comment itself.
Do you mean that you don't mind the fact that Finney spoke out of both sides of his mouth as long as someone doesn't comment on it? Have you noticed that while I may be contending for truth I have not been contemptuous? Even my comment of Finney's speaking out of both sides of his mouth wasn't contemptuous - it was only to point out the truth that reading all of Finney's work is unecessary: Quote:
What I mean is, he qualifies so much of his writings in other works that I don't know what he actually believed in the end along these lines.
You said: Quote:
Disagree to your hearts content, but until you have studied out everything this man, used greatly of God has ever done, stated, spoken, absorbed it, lived it and fully understand it ...
Do I have to study out everything that Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Herbert W. Armstrong, Jim Jones, or Muhammed has ever done, stated, or spoken to know that they are false prophets? Do I have to study out everything that a true prophet has ever done, stated, or spoken to know that he is a true prophet? No! What they believe about the Person and work of Christ and how they apply that is sufficient. You see, it is even possible to be totally orthodox about the Person and work of Christ (fundamentalist) and still be a false prophet making improper application with those truths. There is a coming counterfeit revival and if we don't learn to spot its proponents and warn others against it then can we truly say that we are lovers of the truth? Here's a booklet on the coming counterfeit revival http://www.devcobaptist.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=31831&PID=386851
Here's an audio sermon on the coming counterfeit revival http://www.devcobaptist.org/clientimages/31831/thecomingcounterfeitrevival-1.wma
Quote:
It is and was unjust, it should never have had to happen. That God went through it despite the fact ... Who's perspective is it that you really think Finney is arguing from? Tie yourself into theological pretzels all you wish but I don't think you have taken a well rounded listen to much of what has been offered here.
Mike, if it were unjust for God to allow His Son (THE JUST) to die in the place of us sinners (THE UNJUST) so that He could be JUST and the JUSTIFIER of the one who has faith in Jesus then He did it in an unjust manner. This is my whole point of contending for the truth in this matter - Finney was not arguing from God's perspective, he was arguing from Finney's perspective. God's perspective according to His Word is that the only way for Him to forgive and justify sinners and He remain JUST is through a willing, sinless, spotless, substitute bearing the penaltly of the unjust so that God can legally declare the unjust, "just" by imputing the righteousness of the JUST to the unjust. That my friend is "Penal-Substitutionary Atonement" which is in accordance to the Word of God.
Robert: Thanks for the genuine attempt to look at some of the issues surrounding the legitimacy/illegitimacy of various theories of the atonement.
SI and friends: Please forgive any appearances or actualities of rudeness on my part. Not once have I been angered or offended through any of this nor have I intended to be rude or contemptuous. Let us all put on the full armor of God, so that we will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
Grace and peace
Olan
_________________
Olan Strickland
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| | 2006/10/19 11:24 | Profile | mamaluk
Member
Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524
| | Re: | | RobertW,
WHAT? Luther erred ? NO WAY !! :) :)
I understand the 'grace' you or others attempted to extend to Finney, let's extend the same grace to brother Olan and to each other always, even though we/they didn't write as much or preach to as many as Finney.
Somedays, I wish there were no books written on doctrinces at all,(as if the Holy Spirit will come short in teaching the Truth seekers byHimself!!), except those biographies or inspirational. As for doctrine, one has barely time to labor in the Scripture..
Dealing with those.....nah, I'm done, I don't deal with ....no time, busy dealing with my wretched self !
Olan
Quote:
SI and friends: Please forgive any appearances or actualities of rudeness on my part. Not once have I been angered or offended through any of this nor have I intended to be rude or contemptuous. Let us all put on the full armor of God, so that we will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
Brother Olan, no you have not once indeed !
Thank you so much, sorry to override your post (by accident) Edit |
| | 2006/10/19 11:40 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Olan,
Quote:
Robert: Thanks for the genuine attempt to look at some of the issues surrounding the legitimacy/illegitimacy of various theories of the atonement.
It is a deep subject indeed. Finney had a way of saying a lot of things that were his way of saying them. They don't always sound like we are in agreement, but when things get boiled down they don't seem to be as off as at first. So in no way would I begin to place Finney in the camp with many other cults though I mentioned Joseph Smith to make a point. Mainly because I live in the shadow of the RLDS church in Indep. MO. They have tried to move towards orthodoxy but still yet CRI brands them a cult. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I have to say that sometimes folk are not going to meet a certain standard. My apologies for the confusion.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/10/19 12:08 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Olan,
I took some time to read the article and don't really believe Finney could possibly fit that model. I know of no other minister who preached as strongly and powerfully against sin. He was holiness to the core. His desire was that folk would turn to God with all their hearts and resolve any controversies they had with Him. His message "God Cannot Please Sinners" is one of the most eye opening pieces I have ever read against false ministering. Another consideration is that Paris Reidhead held a unique view of Original Sin also. So ministers that would be on board with you view of a coming apostacy resulting from man-centered ministry is not a lot different than their preaching against selfishness and humanism; they just didn't pull in the eschatological portions.
God Bless,
Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/10/19 14:54 | Profile | OverSeer
Member
Joined: 2006/7/15
Posts: 153
Geneva, Alabama
| | Re: | | Hi Robert, Quote:
I took some time to read the article and don't really believe Finney could possibly fit that model.
I didn't share the article to indict Finney. But the truth remains that if there is coming [b]the apostasy[/b](counterfeit revival), there will be mini-apostasies all along the way through the many false prophets who have gone out into the world. Since I genuinely believe that there have been and are going to be false revivals that will pave the way and culminate in "the false revival", I have to "put the trumpet to my lips" and produce a distinct sound - "For if the bugle (trumpet) produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?" (1 Corinthians 14:8).
I was saved in 1994. February 2, 1998 I was in attendance at the Annual Pastor's Conference at First Baptist Jacksonville Florida at the invitation of my pastor. Warren Wiersbe preached that morning on [i]Four Wonderful Discoveries For Leaders[/i]. During that message the Holy Spirit of God was dealing powerfully in my heart and He said to me that morning, "Do you want to be a popular preacher or my spokesman?" I answered the Lord right there and then and told Him that I wanted to be His spokesman. I didn't have enough sense at the time to realize that the Lord had called me into the ministry. I didn't fully answer that call until 2001. However, everything the Lord promised me that morning He has been 100% faithful to. God has not called me to deal in shadowy shades of grey (not insinuating that you do) but to deal in black and white. For me an attack on the "Penal-Substitutionary Atonement" is an attack on the work of Christ which is at the heart of the Gospel. If I do not defend it (the true Gospel), then I will not be God's spokesman, although I might would become immensely popular. God knows that I am willing to live as a prophet and die as a prophet for the sake of His glory and His elect. It is not so much error that makes men mad - it is TRUTH!
Grace and peace
Olan
_________________
Olan Strickland
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| | 2006/10/19 16:14 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Olan,
Quote:
God has not called me to deal in shadowy shades of grey (not insinuating that you do) but to deal in black and white. For me an attack on the "Penal-Substitutionary Atonement" is an attack on the work of Christ which is at the heart of the Gospel. If I do not defend it (the true Gospel), then I will not be God's spokesman, although I might would become immensely popular. God knows that I am willing to live as a prophet and die as a prophet for the sake of His glory and His elect. It is not so much error that makes men mad - it is TRUTH!
For me perhaps the most troubling thing I see and hear all around repentance circles is that a great many folk have this idea, almost a pre-occupation with being 'unpopular'. It is important to note that Prophets were unpopular because they were the Oracle of God. You are not alone in your quest for 'black and white'- there are a great many men and women that are taking this line. The thing is, everyone has their own interpretation of what the black and white actually is. There are a host that refuse to 'back down' (as some would call it) and they are suffering rejection and unpopularity for sure. But I am not convinced that God is not wanting to use us as a voice in many cases right where we are. To endure the unpopularity and rejection may be part of the process. However, its like there is a group of radical believers feeling the mantle of 'prophet' upon them with sword in hand and many are on the brink of slicing and dicing each other. They often don't get along among themselves because they REFUSE to give an inch. Just what I've been seeing happen over the last few years. the results? A whole lot of 'lone ranger' prophetic types that are in danger of spinning their wheels. I sometimes wonder if we don't have a dose of stubbornness and we are mistaking that for resolve or 'no compromise'. Just being honest. Love is the bond of perfection. the Fruit of the Spirit have to be in order in all that we do. There is no such thing as a Prophet that does not yield the Fruits of the Spirit. We need to be mindful that we do not misinterpret and in-turn MISS what God is wanting to do through us.
God Bless,
-Robert
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/10/19 18:05 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I agree that there will be a counterfeit revival. There are counterfeit revivals going on right now.
One of my relatives who is very caught up in the word of faith movement was telling me about a revival happening in the middle east right now. She said "Jesus is appearing to them". I was floored when she told me this.
Her justification was the fact that these people can't read and wright and this is the only way they are able to hear about him. Her eyes lit up while she was telling me these things. I could'nt believe how nieve she sounded. Are people really this gullible? God help us!!
J-bird |
| | 2006/10/19 18:29 | | ChrisJD
Member
Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA
| | Re: | | Hi everyone.
Hi RobertW
Quote:
What was the 'penalty' for sins? It is considered heretical to believe that Jesus went to Hell for our sins, so what is the extent to which He took our place?
I don't want to distract from the topic but I wanted to share some verse refrences in relation to this question that you posed. Maybe we can talk over them in messages or in another thread.
The refrences are Matthew 22:13, Matthew 27:45, Hebrews 13:11-14 and Revelation 22:14-15.
Take care for now and peace be with you.
_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow
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| | 2006/10/19 19:25 | Profile |
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