I think I mentioned this before but I actually bought my first bible, a KJV, from the JW's at the door. No JW 'scholar' will run from the KJV.
I dont know how long ago it was that you bought a KJV from a JW, but they use the New World Translation... which is actually more true to the Wescott & Hort Greek than any other Bible. They ceased using the KJV a long time ago. But hey, you're considerably older than me, right? (I'll be 39 tomorrow!)
| 2006/9/21 12:53|
I still don't understand why it is believed that the KJV is "The word of God" and modern translations are not. I have explained what I have learned both in school and in personal studies.
Well... Since we both agree there is two different schools of text, the Alexandrian and the Textus Receptus, and we both agree that they differ from each other quite drastically... then we must conclude that a) either they are both corrupted... or b) one is the preserved Word of God and the other is not. They cant both be the preserved Word of God. It would be like taking two John Grisham books, say The Client and A Time To Kill... and saying that they are the same book. Hey, they have the same author... the story lines both take place in the South... they are the same book!
Thats where I am coming from. Either one is corrupt or they are both corrupt... but they cant both be the preserved Word of God. If one of them is the preserved Word of God then it is every Christians duty to learn about this and ask God to reveal the truth about it. Then reject the false and embrace the true.
And I believe with all my heart that that is what I have done. Do I understand everything there is to know about this issue? No. But I understand and have studied it enough to be completely convinced.
And I was once a staunch NIV person. And I used the NASB, the Amplified, and the RSV. I've now rejected them all and stick to the KJV.
And I have Tyndale Bible... I would be interested in knowing what was changed from his renderings to the KJV. And who's to say that the KJV translators didnt get it right when Tyndale might have gotten it wrong? Why do we assume corruption on the part of the KJV translators? Perhaps Tyndale was capable of making a mistake. I am sure he was not perfect, just as the KJV translators were not all perfect human beings.
| 2006/9/21 13:00|
What is the "preserved Word of God" to an Albanian believer who doesn't speak a lick of English, and who doesn't know anything save the power and purity of the Word of God from his own Albanian bible?
Would someone be so arrogant and pharisaical to tell him he needs to learn English so he can understand the KJV and get the "genuine" Word? What about the millions of Chinese and Korean believers who have great fellowship and prayer and devotion [i]without[/i] the English KJV being read and taught from their pulpits? Indeed, it's not the KJV that counts, but the manuscript from which the Word of God is translated, and the believer's faith which activates it (Hebrews 4:2) and the anointing of the Holy Spirit which illuminates it (John 14:26; I Cor. 2:14).
So, I guess the question now is: If all the Chinese and Mongolian and Punjabi and Abkhasian and Russian Bibles are translated from the same Greek and Hebrew texts the KJV was, would not these Bibles be the "preserved" Word of God as well? Of course! It would be the epitome of ignorance to think otherwise.
Now, as an advanced Russian linguist and one fluent in the intricacies of the modern slang and colloquilisms of the language, I know that there are many Russian words, idioms, phrases, and grammatical concepts that would seem quite foreign and nonsensical in English if translated directly. Most Slavic and Baltic languages have a completely different way of grammatical thinking and many English words and ideas sound utterly foolish when translated verbatim. Yet all these exotic and highly complicated and incompatible-to-English languages have produced native Bibles which, in turn, have produced saved and sanctified believers with remaining fruit, and many of these believing fellowships see moves of God equal to, and if not greater than what we see here in the West with all our empty theology, translation-squabbling and KJV glorying.
Personally, I believe God is so far beyond our translation squabbles; indeed, there is a matter so much more dire at hand! The KJV doesn't need to be deliberated, defended, downsized or demagogued - rather, it needs to be obeyed and lived! The NIV, NLT, NASB and CEV all need to be lived. I believe that through any one of these translations God can bring sweeping revival, if their adherents would only humble themselves and trust and obey what they read.
[i](edit. - I study, read, teach, and preach from the KJV. It is my preference for the Word of God in English. But I also read the Russian New Testament and experience the same majesty, joy and cleansing when I read the words of Jesus Christ in that language.)[/i]
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/9/21 13:58||Profile|
I'm not particularly fond of the KJV translation of Romans 8:1
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Almost all of the new versions translate it something like this:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
The KJV makes justification a matter of works (in this verse) and if that is what is in the Textus Receptus, I have to lean toward the Alexandrian texts.
Feel free to disagree without being disagreeable
| 2006/9/21 14:42||Profile|
This issue is indeed a bit of a headache for the English-speaking Christian communities. As much as I love and embrace the KJV, I do believe that God, the Holy Spirit, can use any Bible to teach anything if HE so pleases anytime.
Whenever I fellowship with the Chinese-speaking Christians, I appreciate the simplicity of studying the Chinese Bible without hardly any debates over translation problems. Even though there will still be debates over exegesis.
God can teach us with any version, I believe, but there are times, one does have to speak out against falsity and errors, whether they be translations, interpretations, or doctrines.
| 2006/9/21 15:16||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Have we forgotten Holy Spirit in all this?|
i'm with you,at the end of the day it is not the text but the Spirit which inspired the text. the believers of old didn't have copies of the scriptures to study for themselves daily, they listened to them and Holy Spirit illuminated the scriptures for them. i use a few different versions and God ministers to me irrespectve of which text i use. i think also the testitmony of the believers who despite not having a KJV or T.R. derived version of the word on hand still do mighty things for God WITHOUT it speaks to the work of the Spirit of God in this matter. what of us who do have the T.R. derived versions, what have we to show for having the supposedly preserved word of God? isn't it amazing that we are put to shame by people who often times don't have resources like we do in as much as their labours for the kingdom of God? it seems to me we have tapped into every resource except the one which counts, Holy Spirit. it is evident that we neither have much knowledge of nor appreciation for this third member of the Godhead, if we did we'd know that it is by Him that the scriptures are illumined for us. Brethren let us repent of our prides and call out to God that He may send His Holy Spirit upon us afresh!
If nothing else let this be plain to us all, even if one has the T.R. or the very original writings themselves, without God's Holy Spirit to illumine the scriptures, it simply doesn't matter.
| 2006/9/21 15:50||Profile|
Would someone be so arrogant and pharisaical to tell him he needs to learn English so he can understand the KJV and get the "genuine" Word?
Go back and read my posts. If his Albanian Bible is based on the Textus Receptus, then he has the preserved Word of God. Same for Spanish, French, etc...
At no time did I ever claim the KJV is the perfectly preserved Word of God.
| 2006/9/21 16:21|
TrueWitness... the KJV is merely clarifying that if you are in Christ then you will be walking not after the flesh, but in the Spirit.
Not sure how you've drawn your conclusion on your interpretation of that passage.
Walking not after the flesh is the [b]result[/b] of being in Christ.
| 2006/9/21 16:25|
At no time did I ever claim the KJV is the perfectly preserved Word of God.
And at no time did I ever say you did. :-)
My point was that God can anoint and give life through both texts. People have been soundly saved through reading the NIV, CEV, NLT. I had my first encounter with God's Spirit while reading John chapter 10 in the TEV back in 1989. Are you prepared to sharpshoot because of the version's text? I think this is what happens when people get puffed up with knowledge, and are no longer content to rest in the simplicity of Christ and contend for their own walks. Because of the inward emptiness from leaving their first love, they have to now project their biases and become a type of 'theological watchdog' and argue over stuff as inconsequential as how much water to use in baptism and which version of the Bible holds the magic key to get them into heaven. Many of those KJV-only websites and fundamental, Bible-based discernment ministries are grievous and completely unctionless. Revolting.
I preach, teach and meditate on the KJV (there are a few translations that I disdain), but I also recognize that God uses the other translations as well (yes, even those based on the Alexandrian manuscripts) to soundly save people and feed them. But my choice is the KJV because of its poignancy, it's exhaltation of the deity of Jesus and its amazing history of God-stamped approval. William Tyndale, to me, should be heralded as the greatest Englishman EVER; Shakespeare and Newton can't hold a candle to his genius. They say he spoke eight languages with native fluidity.
Anyway, these conversations have a tendency to turn ugly real fast. The cause is not which version is God's - the real cause, rather, is pride, and a lack of submission unto the Word, regardless of which translation you subscribe to. The NIV has some very beautiful, powerful passages. I sincerely belive that one can read the NIV all their life, live holy, experience personal revival, see God move, continually abide in the Holy Spirit, have a lasting, weeping burden for souls, and be taken up to glorious heaven when they die - never having opened a page of the KJV or studied the Textus Receptus.
And God won't hold it against them.
Can you dig? 8-)
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/9/21 16:25||Profile|
I have been wondering working on the amount of today s version and New ________ you can put in the bible.
Will they make these new bibles so unreadable I mean with the degradation of language through the influences of television and the media what is going to be the products that are sooner or later going to line are christian bookstore shelves.
The average readership of the Sun in england is for a 12 year old , how illiturate will bible readers get. Sooner or later they will combine the childrens section with the adult section of bibles because the readibilty is so much more easier I would hate to think if it got down that low.
Also when a new translation comes out when people are trying to modernize it , they do not think about the increase in sin in society which has affected the bible but that is not saying that there was sin before.
That the english language although modernized I do not disdane making the bible easier to read or translating the bible into a language so that people understand it and cultures can be changed my it.
How dumb are we going to get? I have been studying languages and have realised that languages do change but is it not better than rather dumbing down the scriptures that we educate ourselves to understand them.
Charles Spurgeon started polytechnics or was influental in learing and education. I am paraphrasing from this book
Charles Spurgeon: The Prince of Preachers (Heroes of the Faith) (Mass Market Paperback)[url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Charles-Spurgeon-Prince-Preachers-Heroes/dp/1593106254]Book[/url]
Working in a christian bookshop recently it breaks my heart to see a sell on bibles and noone is buying them.
Are country desperatly needs the word of god as the church could more likely quote friends than something from the word of god(jesus)
and I want to use every waking hour to get the bible out to the masses.
| 2006/9/21 20:36||Profile|