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mega
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Joined: 2006/4/28
Posts: 20
Australia, NSW

 Re: OSAS

Yeah I know what your saying but if a subject is spoken again and again it can bring confusion to people who may not have a full understanding on the subject or even God's word, everyone has a different opinion and you do have to be careful of deception too....this website is about exhorting, edification and comfort. bringing people closer to God, I believe this subject can be dangerous because if people are led to believe they can live in sin and still enter the kingdom of God, just be careful because baby christians look at this site for guidance. God Bless


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B.J

 2006/9/2 0:46Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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Ca.

 Re: OSAS

How can someone loose what is not theirs in the First Place. The question is not what are we saved from but what are we saved to. Saved from puts the monkey on our backs. Saved to puts salvation in the hand of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/2 3:28Profile









 Re:

I suppose there is one question at the heart of this topic: if somebody makes a confession and then returns to his old ways later on in life, was he really saved in the first place?

I also suppose that this topic may never be concluded. If you are truly born again, then you will live differently, and you will, ultimately, go to heaven. But how will we know if somebody has entered heaven unless we see them enter it? The fact is, we don't know absolutely 100% for sure if someone is in heaven or not.

The other problem is that some people may give external signs of conversion, although they may not have actually been genuine in their commitment. But then again, how do we know? Who truly knows the hearts of men except God alone?

 2006/9/2 5:12
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: OSAS

Quote:
this website is about exhorting, edification and comfort. bringing people closer to God, I believe this subject can be dangerous because if people are led to believe they can live in sin and still enter the kingdom of God, just be careful because baby christians look at this site for guidance. God Bless



Absolutely brother and I am in full agreement here with you on this matter, am about to somewhat contradict myself anyway ... Could have put it differently I suppose, that there is a great deal of reference available, that's all.

Awoke this morning from a terrible dream, full of temptation it was, the kind you [i]feel[/i], dream or no dream. It had that carry over effect that wanted to continue the draw even wide awake. It sent me to some gut wrenching, flesh destroying prayer. It behooves me to spare the details. Somehow it transmuted into what is to follow .... Will only preface it a bit by saying that surely much of it is a redundancy expressed elsewhere, but it may side up a bit with what you mentioned if I am not over reading your sentiments; some things need repeating.


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Mike Balog

 2006/9/2 10:55Profile
crsschk
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 Departure on a proscription

There is something entirely grievous about this whole construct that is deeply troubling. It needs so much definition and explaining that it ought to just be done away with. It at once seems to be a twisting into contortion [i]part[/i] of the vast whole of God's thought, the Lords salvation and reconciliation and disallowing even that which the Holy Spirit teaches in the innermost regions of the soul.

Mere men! Men crafting statements, pronouncing benedictions and handing out that which was never theirs to give, not in their fallible control to begin with. Oncologists and pediatricians in the spiritual realm, obstetricians, not the mid wife role that is given to us.

What infant knows it's existence? And what grown man need told he is no longer infantile? This whole matter is so corrupted as to be meaningless and a great problem that has plagued the Church by way of example, that the whole is neglected for the part, over and over again. It may well be the schism and branching of the disease of denominational abomination, camping on select verses and building entire foundations from them.

To go the route of proof texting is of almost little avail only in as much as one being pitted against another rather than recognized as derivative of the one and same substance. All that to say plainly, this is utter nonsense and is both giving false assurance and license for presumption. Whatever the real truth of it, extracted out of the mishandling, it is hardly worth the diabolical, reckless, sloppy form of words that glide effortlessly, thoughtlessly from the lips of mere men.

Why do we groan and cry inwardly? Where do the springs of that which we know elsewhere, in the very marrow of being, the soul ... why do we cry [i]Abba, Father[/i], from whence these things come from? Is it merely an abstract application of thought's planted in the mind, some philosophical school of principles and rules of conduct, membership, sign-up fellowship, a career path, a scholarship ... An altar call and certificate? Is it truly [i]once[/i] _____ always ____? Where is this emphatically given anywhere in scripture? I surely do not mean a cutting out of the cloth;

[i] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/i] Joh 10:28

Why? Because the very substance and context is set aside by all that precedes it;

[i] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [u]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me[/u]: [/i] Joh 10:26,27

Not only is there knowledge, being known by the Lord, but knowing the Lord, "hearing My voice" [i]and[/i] [b]they follow Me[/b].

The parables of the Lord. Seeds strewn and seeds planted. Seeds rejected and seeds trampled. Birth is the only evidence there is. A pulse is demanded!

Forever the requirements are before us;

[i]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [/i] Mat 7:21,22

[i]And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?[/i] Luk 6:46

[i]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/i] Mat 7:23

Depart from [i]Me[/i]?

My God, I fear exceedingly that we have not grasped the tremendous horror that is embodied in those words! It may only be surpassed incredibly by those who gave that assurance to the unsuspecting ... it may well be pure speculation but I am almost of a mind that the ignorant may well be spared and ...

...[i] whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.[/i] Mat 18:6

It would be a relief if all that was accountable was merely death by drowning.... [i] Departure[/i]!

So how to speak to this matter? Perhaps the greater trouble with this is in it's common place, out of order, overemphasized placement in this great, vast, life of the children of God. The general populace of what construes Christianity today and I use that quite lightly, it is a missive that has made all things far too common and at ease. What is the primary teaching afoot in our era? Principles and application. Spiritual substance, flesh and blood reality, gut-wrenching, creation groaning fact is relegated to the abstract, to prose and cast out as mere imagination, emotionalism, fanaticism. In it's place, how-to, how not -to. Proscriptions and catch phrases. It was well mentioned elsewhere here how ruinous is the jargon that is bandied about, [i]Christian lingo[/i].

No man, no preacher, ought to be telling anyone, anywhere, anything that is not in factual evidence. The only souls that know the Lord are those souls who know the Lord. Period. And who in their right mind does not know when the entirety of their former disposition is and has begun to be turned inside out and upside down? What foolishness is it to tell a man standing in a river that his feet are wet?

How far has the Church veered in presumption and 'assurance' over the sheer value of astonishment? What is grace and mercy but an unutterable grasping at the magnitude of what has happened to a soul returned back to his Creator?

[i] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [/i] 1Pe 4:18

What is the epitome of Paul's "God forbid!" on all matters of presumption? For the life of me, I find it absolutely impossible that the Lords words repeated back into His hearing, [i]Lord, Lord[/i] could ever be uttered above ...

... [i]standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.[/i]

"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

It is utterly amazing what has happened in this day. To think that the place where eternal, blazing glory is enough to burn the very flesh from the bones is a place of presumptuous boasting ... To even begin to address that which the soul [i]knows[/i] inwardly by radical readjustment and regeneration, renewal, revival, whatever faltering, lacking, beggarly language we might give it ...

The filial, reverential fear of God, true love, real peace, exhaust less, eternal life ... All this, to be codified and debased down to a human level, crafted into some throw away statements as they are, disregarded as so much empty, wanting, lacking reality ... And then the surprise that the world has turned a deaf ear to our pleas ...

Oh dear Lord, save us from ourselves.


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Mike Balog

 2006/9/2 11:08Profile
crsschk
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 Re: And an addendum ....

Seems an addendum is necessary just as well and I am thankful that this is still replaying in the thoughts;

Quote:
just be careful because baby christians look at this site for guidance.



Indeed it is so, lest we forget where we all have come from. To the new born's, the fresh converts, to the halting between two opinions, wherever one may be in wrestling and struggling, searching, seeking ... trying to make sense of it all. Though all that came before is a heart cry for all, there is a [i]beginning[/i] and really that is what all of this amounts to, a beginning and a continuation. "Assurance" can both be welcoming and deviating, the later having been so overwrought .... I digress. Most certainly that which he Lord has given [b][i]is[/i][/b] eternal life, [b][i]is[/i][/b] settled, that there should be no fear on the one hand, that which is being afraid, is a substitute or that one carries a paranoia about them.

Note the changes when you have given over yourself and been bought with the price that is priceless, the cost that is so incredible that all the collective wisdom of the world cannot even begin to express. It is this that the Lord was both crucified and exalted for, the reward of His suffering ... you and me. Let it be the astonishment that it is, ponder it often and always. You appreciation will only grow and develop into wider realms of thanksgiving and true praise.

There is no easy way through the narrow gate on the slim trail. It is asking for more than you know, demanding a truer honesty than you can even begin to recognize but with that a great deliverance and relief. No longer must you fake anything before Him who know and sees all, it has always been so, only now you begin to realize it.

You are asking for a great deal of trouble and it will come as surely as the sun rises. Having departed one minor, corrupt kingdom for the grand and glorious one, the previous dictator is not appeased easily and forfeits unwillingly. But if you can but recognize it when and while it is at hand do take note that you are now in the fight!And what a noble fight it is! It is worth every effort and all the strength you can muster at times but this is not a strength that will hold. It is why you must learn to relinquish it to the Lords strength, it becomes a merging that is difficult to describe without branching off into a lot of heresy. The Lord is your strength, enough said.

But do take note of all the seemingly little things that your mind will want to send off as 'coincidence' without letting that become an experience to rest on. Perhaps an illustration.

Early on in this walk the Lord saw fit to begin awakening me at or near 4:AM. The first couple of times it was that sense of 'This is peculiar' and hardly realized what was happening. Well recall when it began to dawn on me one of those mornings, reading and praying and I thought to myself, "Why this is beyond peculiar, Lord, what or why is this happening?". By impression, the answer back was; "Follow Me". That was it, it struck me at the time as ...
"You will see, ...eventually"

Look for the evidences in your life and allow yourself the pleasure of bringing the questions to the surface. It's an amazing revelation at times. In fact it still is to me! What I do mean to attend to is taking notice of what is stirring within you that defies proper explanation. Why this desire to really [i]know[/i] God? Why is it that now things that used to bring pleasure are becoming a disinterest or even a conviction? Why do you feel a need to pray? Or even the evidence that you feel you ought to but would rather not ...? To dwell on these kinds of things are evidences, proofs if you will. Changes. Glorious changes. A true inner longing that wants to do Gods will, longs for God's will despite what these bundles of contradictions that we are might think in any given moment. You just begin to know the sense of ... [i]Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.[/i]

Just as well, some force feeding is necessary, the old man is weak and strangely enough dies hard. Discipline and disciple are of the same derivative, and you are a disciple if you are following the Lord and you will follow and endure and go on and be misunderstood and a whole host of innumerable things will take place. But it is incredible and rapturing and full of wonder and times of excitement, real happiness that is joy, peace that the world knows not and yes, security, comfort in affliction, understanding through suffering even if only slightly grasped by the mind, but grasped nonetheless.

I would say that this word, 'assurance' could be put aside as non issue, it's not needed. What is needed is new life from new birth and then growing in the knowledge of the Lord, a continuum, a process, it is always in motion even as we stumble and trip over ourselves along the way.

But above all, pray! Pray always, learn this tremendous gift, practice it constantly, read about it, study it until it becomes part and parcel of your makeup. Reading the scriptures and drinking in deeply from them, it would seem to go without saying yet, again, force feeding often a necessity.

Sin and repentance ... first requirements of repudiating and understanding, if this was overlooked, if this sting and stench of death is not first addressed than all that I have mentioned here means absolutely nothing to anyone. It goes at the beginning, there is no conception possible without the souls confession, to the Lord and to the Lord alone. To accept, receive, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to ask for an invasion of your innermost being. I personally am not fond at all of those first two words even if they are descriptive, they have fallen prey to the same corruption as this whole matter at hand. But to believe on the Lord is so full of demands, with promises, is far beyond the reaches of the mind, it is believing in and with the soul. It is to have the God of all creation cohabiting within you. Think of it! Astounding fact! That is the Holy Spirit taking up residence within the heart by the incredible process of birth ...

It is rather strange to be spelling all this out here, but only in as much as for those who may be peering in on this from a far, a great deal merely preaching to the choir. But what of us? Have we lost some of the wonder and astonishment that is, while we are distracted over variations of points of doctrine, controversy's, what have you? Goodness, just to attempt to spell all this out to the best of my limited understanding is a great thing to look back on, muse on.

It is an astonishing thing. Great God in Heaven!
The scandal of the ages, God's great condensation to the likes of us ...



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Mike Balog

 2006/9/2 13:13Profile
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 Re: Lastly ...

Since I am so full of expression and attempted explanation, an extravagance of words ...
To eek out a bit of this dream from last night and I believe I am forming a picture now of what the Lord is trying to get through to me, it is the second in the last couple of nights with a similar theme ... But the premise that launched all this was over a matter of the new birth. Was in a discussion with a mother and daughter, both Catholics and the daughter well versed in her particular theology. Bringing up the subject before them was met with a chiding and from the mother "Why don't you spell it out for the young man" sentiment towards the daughter who went on to produce ... well, a literal comic strip version of the bible, I mean Batman and Robin with little voice balloons of scripture out takes. Even a family member it seems was there, belittling me for the stand of being born again. I mentioned that I was no theologian which was met with the sentiment of "poor fellow, that is surely in evidence", was taken back a bit by it all and ... well it only went downhill from there. Perhaps someday all of it can be articulated, what I believe the Lord is after.

But can I admit something here?

All this expression on this subject, everything pouring forth ... It at once seems as if I am talking far beyond myself. I understand it well enough but there is something that causes me to want to run away and hide. Not out of cowardliness or anything of that sort but more from ...

"Who is sufficient for these things?"

There is that which seems fragile and precious not only to that sense of loss out there with so much being spoken on the peripheral, but inwardly. I am speaking of the Gospel. This hard to attribute delicateness. It having been so ... slighted and mis ... represented, by the loud and proud, the ones not sent, not as the trumpet of the humble and contrite. I hardly know if this makes the sense I could wish it to. Maybe it is an appeal for bringing correction to it, from those of known experience.
It still feels lacking and in need of further clarification and I also realize the tendencies to go on and on, the mind reaching in ten different directions at the same time.

It is still so beyond me, feel far unqualified to even speak and yet the compelling to do so anyway. "Knowing not what he said". It could be chalked up to any number of things, exhaustion from a long week or coupled with that spiritual exhaustion that can come about in prayer and in even sensing the weight of words used beyond the reaches of full understanding. It's somewhat difficult to even allow this to come forth, strangely enough.

Had mentioned a musing awhile back about Elijah and the prophets of Baal and after that tremendous dealing who quickly came the seeming turn of the great prophet into something other, when Jezebel sent after his life. How to go from that mountain to;

[i]It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.[/i]

[i]Why[/i] he ran, why this expression so shortly afterwards? I hardly know and forgive the application if it be off, but the wonder is if it was in large part due to that sense of feeling unworthy for the task in the first place, that of being Gods instrument in the slaying of the false prophets and having been spent in what must have been an incredible spiritual expenditure ... found himself right where the expected weakness would be, in that state of exhaustion and bewilderment. Not only "I am not better" but "take away my life".

This is not a statement, just a wonder. And hardly a comparison but any stretch of the imagination.

Maybe all that I am trying to express is ... do we feel the gravity of these things? Have they become so commonplace that the sense of awe and admiration, of what holiness [i]means[/i], not what has been wrongly attributed to it, but the weight of the sacred ...

Souls. This is what is being dealt with, souls that belong to God and God alone. "[i]All souls are Mine[/i]". God is reconciling the world to [i]Himself[/i], how hard for this mere man to even utter such a thing, to speak in His stead. I shudder and flee


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Mike Balog

 2006/9/2 14:48Profile
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Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
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 Re:

Thankyou Sir for your posts...

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Maybe all that I am trying to express is ... do we feel the gravity of these things? Have they become so commonplace that the sense of awe and admiration, of what holiness [i]means[/i], not what has been wrongly attributed to it, but the weight of the sacred ...
"[i]All souls are Mine[/i]". God is reconciling the world to [i]Himself[/i],

Amen!!!!!!!!!
"For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof."-1Cor 10:26(kjv) I know these things, these thoughts of God are too beautiful for me...Please pray that the Lord will keep me in humility the rest of my earthly days, and may I always be greatful of His work in my life...for there is no reason for me to boast, except to boast in God Himself!!! Thankyou again for your posts...
richie


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Richie

 2006/9/2 15:53Profile
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 Re:Once Saved always saved.

I generally will stand and listen and not speak until I find something to speak about! Well, I believe that the greatest gift that man can receive is the gift of Salvation. Not wanting to hurt anyones feelings or anything. The Bible is clear that we are beings with a free will and we make choices that sometimes make me wonder. But, nevertheless we are free to do as we please. Nothing can pull us out of God's hand this is TRUTH...But we can of our own free will toss the gift to the side and walk away from God. This is in my Spirit. So If I am wrong I would like someone to help me to believe otherwise.

Thank You


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Dennis E. Hall

 2006/9/3 1:08Profile
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 Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Once saved always saved is an issue that cannot be swept under a rug and forgotten. There are always going to be people (both saved and unsaved) who will make an inquiry into this subject: "Is a saved person secure in salvation or can salvation be lost?"

Logic determines that the answer has to be either salvation is secure or it is loseable; it cannot be both. This is what causes division over the subject because someone is right and someone is wrong.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,'... And then I will declare to them, I [i]never knew[/i] you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:22-23). First I want to say that this verse applies to both camps - there will be people who believed in OSAS and there will be people who believed that salvation was loseable in this group. Second, I want to say that according to this verse no one "lost" salvation - Jesus said He [i][b]never knew[/b][/i] them. Now if they had been saved then Jesus would have at one time [i]known[/i] them and then He would become a liar to pronounce those words to anyone whom He had ever "known" by having a relationship with him or her.

The dangers with both doctrines; once saved always saved and unsecure salvation, is that it is possible to be right or wrong in the doctrine and still be lost. Both doctrines taken to their final conclusions are dangerous to the unconverted. The doctrine of secure salvation leads to licentiousness for the unconverted - "Since I'm saved (so he or she thinks) and salvation is secure, then I can live how I want to and still be saved." The doctrine of unsecure salvation leads to legalism for the unconverted - "Since it is possible to lose salvation then [i][b]I must keep myself saved[/b][/i] by keeping the law and repenting everytime I sin and ultimately by dying without any unconfessed sin in my life." Both are deadly and destructive outcomes for the unconverted.

For the converted, neither doctrine will condemn because of the outworking of true salvation in the heart and life of the saint. The truly converted who holds to the doctrine of secure salvation will not degenerate into licentious living because the grace of God instructs them to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (Titus 2:11-12). The same is true for the truly converted who holds to the doctrine of unsecure salvation - he or she will not degenerate into legalism because he or she can truly say, "It is my delight to do Your will, O my God" (Psalm 40:8).

Now to some personal testimony on this subject. After I was saved I genuinely wanted to know whether or not salvation was secure or unsecure. I have to admit that I wanted it to be secure because I knew that I was wretched enough that if it was unsecure then I would definitely lose it. But since I had seen the glory of the Lord and His Magnificence and that He only spoke truth, I was willing to accept whatever God revealed in His Word. After much agonizing and praying and searching the Lord gave me this verse as an answer: "For I have come down from heaven, [i][b]not to do My own will[/b][/i], [i]but the will of Him who sent Me[/i]. This is the will of Him who sent Me, [i]that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day[/i]" (John 6:38-39). I realized that God's will for Jesus His Son was that Jesus lose nothing! If He does lose anyone He loses everyone because He will have been disobedient to the Father's will and will have become a sinner - that will never happen!

If salvation is loseable then no one can have assurance of salvation - not until death ushers him or her into God's presence or away from His presence.

Our desire to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age should never come from fear of punishment but from the joy of having beheld the glory and love of the Son of God who died for us so that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for Him who died and rose again on our behalf; and I say that no matter which doctrinal camp you may find yourself in!

Grace and peace
Olan


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Olan Strickland

 2006/9/5 17:22Profile





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