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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Christinyou on 2006/9/7 12:20:08 posted:

Quote:
Peter gives it that name rather than its own, because, being escaped out of prison at Jerusalem, Ac 12:12,25, he would not have it known where he was.


Have I missed something? Are you suggesting that Peter was disorientated for the rest of his life after his experience in Acts 12?

I really don't understand the rest of your post at all.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/7 11:34Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Phillip
i'm rather confused and unsure of what you're trying to get across, could you simplify it please bro?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/7 11:41Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
The Roman Empire and its development into the harlot of Christendom would be fairly standard for Historicists and Preterists. The scarlet woman rides on the scarlet beast and her name is Bablyon, which is the way Christians referred to the city of Rome eg 1Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Peter was in Jerusalem when he wrote this, which is the Great Harlot.

God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is/was married to God.
[b]Revelation 17:2[/b] [color=990000] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.[/color] (Ref. Eze 16:26 You have also committed fornication with the Egyptians your very fleshly neighbors; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.)
[color=990000]

[b]:4[/b] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:[/color]
(Ref [b]Exo 28:5-9[/b] And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. b]:6[/b] they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work. [b]:7[/b]shall have the two shoulder pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together. [b]:8[/b] And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. [b]:9[/b] And you shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel: and [b]39:1-29[/b]
[b]Jer 4:30-31[/b] And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though you clothed your self with crimson, though you decked yourself with ornaments of gold, though you rented your face with painting, in vain you shall make yourself fair; your lovers will despise you, they will seek your life. [b]:31[/b] For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that brings forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewails herself, that spreads her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers [b]1Thes 2:15[/b] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:)

[color=990000][b]:5[/b] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.[/color] (See note for v.9 Ref. [b]Isa 1:21[/b] How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.)

[color=990000][b]:6[/b] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.[/color] (Ref [b]Mat 23:34-37[/b] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [b]:35[/b] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [b]:36[/b] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. [b]:37[/b] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! [b]Luke 11:47-51[/b] Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. [b]:48[/b] Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. [b]:49[/b] Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: [b]:50[/b] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [b]:51[/b] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. [b]Act 7:58-60[/b] And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. [b]:59[/b] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. [b]:60[/b] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.)

[color=990000][b]:9[/b] And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.[/color]
Note: There are really only a few choices that the seven mountains could be Babylon, Rome, or Jerusalem. I am prooving by Scripturethat it is Jerusalem as you could tell from my scripture references through out this chapter. The Seven Mountains are:
1) Scopus
2) Nob
3) "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence"
4) True Mount Zion, the Southeast hill
5) Ophel Mount
6) Fort Antonia
7) the Southwest hill or "old Mount Zion"
Or these:
1.) Mount Gared
2.) Mount Goath
3.) Mount Acra
4.) Mount Bezetha
5.) Mount Moriah
6.) Mount Ophel
7.) Mount Zion
Jerusalem is recognized by Israel and Zion, furthermore, God calls her a harlot in the book of Hosea and through out the old testement. the Tribulation is a time that God is dealing with Israel, [u]not Rome[/u]. The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem to rule and to take his seat in the very temple of God and claim to be God. from which the verses I started this post with.
[b]Eze 16:36-37[/b] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; [b]:37[/b] Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. [b]Isa 1:21[/b] How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of justice; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.)

 2006/9/7 16:15Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Logic on 2006/9/7 21:15:11 posted:

Quote:
Peter was in Jerusalem when he wrote this, which is the Great Harlot.

God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is/was married to God.



It is generally agreed that "Babylon" in 1 Peter 5:13 is a cipher for the city of Rome. The great city in Mesopotamia was no longer such in the first century. Diodorus of Sicily (56-36 BCE) writes: "As for the palaces and the other buildings, time has either entirely effaced them or left them in ruins; and in fact of Babylon itself but a small part is inhabited at this time, and most of the area within its walls is given over to agriculture." (2.9.9) Strabo, who died in 19 CE, writes: "The greater part of Babylon is so deserted that one would not hesitate to say . . . 'The Great City is a great desert'." (Geography 16.1.5) Also, no church other than Rome was claimed in ancient times to be the resting place of Peter. The Sibylline Oracles (5.143-168; 5.434), the Apocalypse of Baruch (10:1-3; 11:1; 67:7), 4 Ezra (3:1, 28, 31), and Revelation (14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2-21) also refer to Rome as "Babylon." There was a reason for connecting the Babylonian and Roman empires, as Norman Perrin writes, "Rome is called Babylon because her forces, like those of Babylon at an earlier time, destroyed the temple and Jerusalem" Raymond Brown Jesus and the Language of the Kingdom This kind of comment would be found in many places. There are some who would see Babylon as Euphrates Bablyon but from earliest times Christian writers identified 'Babylon' with Rome. It was the 'cess pit' of the world.

I don't understand your point about God dealing with Israel. What has Israel to do with 1 Pe 5:13?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/7 17:18Profile
Logic
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
I don't understand your point about God dealing with Israel. What has Israel to do with 1 Pe 5:13?


1 Peter 5:13 to do with babylon.

Where was Israel brought into captivity?
They are still in unbelief and harlotry.
Therefore, Babylon the Great is the Mother of Harlots, and since Israel is the Harlot, she is Babylon.

 2006/9/7 18:19Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
1 Peter 5:13 to do with babylon.

Where was Israel brought into captivity?


So why is Peter adding this cryptic note at the end of a letter which has had nothing to do with 'Israel' and 'Jerusalem'?

This verse is simply part of his closing greetings.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/8 10:38Profile
Dougmore
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Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Quote:
Therefore, Babylon the Great is the Mother of Harlots, and since Israel is the Harlot, she is Babylon.



If I may say something, Just because Israel is called a harlot does not mean that they are the last days harlot. Why couldn't it be the Catholic church? I don't want to offend any saved Catholics out there but that is a possibility.

Another possibility is that the harlot is a spirit. Kind of like the spirit of antichrist. That is what the church of Thyatira was falling to.

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that committed adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds" (Rev. 20-22).

Could this harlot be a spirit?

 2006/9/8 17:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Dougmore on 2006/9/8 22:58:44 posted:

Quote:
Could this harlot be a spirit?


Personally, I think it may well be but in the sense that the harlot is false religion who rides on the back of Rome.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/8 18:18Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
This verse is simply part of his closing greetings.

you might be right, but my main point is that the one who now restrains is the harlot.
This makes sence because, how could he oppose and exalt himself against all that is called God, or object of worship and get away with it with the Harlot(Israel) in the way.

 2006/9/8 18:41Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""If I may say something, Just because Israel is called a harlot does not mean that they are the last days harlot. Why couldn't it be the Catholic church? I don't want to offend any saved Catholics out there but that is a possibility."""

Why could it not be the Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, The Evangelical Church, or in fact all Churches including Islam, Budist, and all other Churches that are outside the realm of Christ being The Only Way to salvation and being born again by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father in the believer, thus knowing the things of the Kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/9 0:03Profile





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