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 Re:

Quote:

mastersuse wrote:
We become born again by believing in our heart that Christ died for us and washed away our sins and by confessing it with our mouth.
The Holy Spirit then starts the conviction of our sinful ways and repentance and forsaking comes in. We then begin to enjoy our new birth of being saved by faith and grace.
God bless you.

Will what you state bring about what Oswald Chambers says about being born again found in this by him, which I also find to be the truth:

November 12th

The transfigured life

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17. What idea have you of the salvation of your soul? The experience of salvation means that in your actual life things are really altered, you no longer look at things as you used to; your desires are new, old things have lost their power. One of the touchstones of experience is—Has God altered the thing that matters? If you still hanker after the old things, it is absurd to talk about being born from above, you are juggling with yourself. If you are born again, the Spirit of God makes the alteration manifest in your actual life and reasoning, and when the crisis comes you are the most amazed person on earth at the wonderful difference there is in you. There is no possibility of imagining that you did it. It is this complete and amazing alteration that is the evidence that you are a saved soul.
What difference has my salvation and sanctification made? For instance, can I stand in the light of 1 Corinthians 13, or do I have to shuffle? The salvation that is worked out in me by the Holy Ghost emancipates me entirely, and as long as I walk in the light as God is in the light, He sees nothing to censure, because His life is working out in every particular, not to my consciousness, but deeper than my consciousness.

Chambers, O. (1993, c1935). My utmost for his highest : Selections for the year (November 12). Grand Rapids, MI: Discovery House Publishers.

 2006/9/7 8:01
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
That was a goodly amount of writing, Been. However, I don't believe it addressed my two questions. Perhaps you could point to a line or two that I may have overlooked. Thanks.



Quote:
Question 1: If I say I am saved and I point to the Jesus as the reason, am I born again?

Question 2: If I profess the born again experience, am I a disciple of the Jesus?



No person other than Christ is in a position to say who is born again and who is not. No one other than Christ is able to say who is His disciple and who is not.

That is the answer to your questions.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/9/7 8:35Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Dare we question!

Quote:
Question: If I say I am saved and I point to the Jesus as the reason, am I born again?

Question 2: If I profess the born again experience, am I a disciple of the Jesus?



Ormly, Superb questions – and absolutely vital to the discussion! They are like a grenade that explodes all the neat theological packages we create for ourselves. They explode our own self- delusions.

Let me tell you, for years I knew exactly how to “say” and the “profess” but had no idea that it wasn’t much more than that. And I recall a preacher saying that we should never doubt. Instead we should trust that “stake” we planted waaaay back then when we “got saved”. Really, this has been a general assumption. Asking such questions as you raise are a no-no.

I’m glad that there are people bold enough to blow the bubble. Ex Richard Owen Roberts says, “I don’t care one bit what happened way back then. What’s happening NOW????”

Edit: Our words, claims, and assumptions don't mean much - it's the real thing that counts.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/9/7 8:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:

beenblake wrote:
Quote:
That was a goodly amount of writing, Been. However, I don't believe it addressed my two questions. Perhaps you could point to a line or two that I may have overlooked. Thanks.



Quote:
Question 1: If I say I am saved and I point to the Jesus as the reason, am I born again?

Question 2: If I profess the born again experience, am I a disciple of the Jesus?



No person other than Christ is in a position to say who is born again and who is not. No one other than Christ is able to say who is His disciple and who is not.

That is the answer to your questions.

In Christ,
Blake



Are we to believe, by the simplicity of your stated opinion, that there will not necessarily be a Spirit to spirit comfirmation that will bring the changes spoken of by Chambers?

Orm

 2006/9/7 8:59
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: The witness of the Spirit

I hope I am not stealing Beenblake’s thunder (in response to Ormly's question. But since I popped in, some things are really hitting me on a deeper level – and I wish to share.

Compare these two quotes:

Quote:
If you are born again, the Spirit of God makes the alteration manifest in your actual life and reasoning, and when the crisis comes you are the most amazed person on earth at the wonderful difference there is in you. There is no possibility of imagining that you did it. (Chambers)



and

Quote:
No one other than Christ is able to say who is His disciple and who is not. (Beenblake)



Of course the Lord knows for sure who are his. Yet, I wonder if the second quote is a reaction to the perpetual problem of misdiagnosing – where a MAN does the pronouncing and NOT the Spirit.

I’ll bet that the vast majority of those who believe they are saved believe it because they have been told by religious leaders. And then over the years the illusion is perpetuated and strengthened by either themselves or the church.

The fleshly man seems wired to evaluate itself based on what others tell it. Let's face it, if someone tells you enough times that you are such-and-such, don’t you believe it? Yet, that doesn’t hold when it comes to salvation. It never was meant to.

Scripture is loaded with precautions for avoiding this tendency of making false assumptions. We know them: the Spirit bears witness with us….. by their fruits…… those who persevere are saved… those who walk away are not …… and many more. So why do these explanations keep getting overlooked?

I think it is because those who make false conversions really keep on trusting in man – just as before. True believers do not. Instead, they rely on the Spirit and the inner witness. The test of time reveals the fruit.

Diane




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Diane

 2006/9/7 11:39Profile
brentbarnett
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Joined: 2006/8/31
Posts: 20
Wisconsin

 Re:

What do you all think of these
gospel explanations? I think we
must take John 3:16, Luke 13:5,
Romans 10:9-10 and other verses
as a lump sum. We need to use
the principles from the whole counsel
of God. Repentance, trust in
the sacrificial work of Christ,
and submitting to the Lordship
of Christ are all essential parts
of salvation, though I believe
God may work the fullness of these
truths into our hearts over time.

http://www.relevantbibleteaching.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=140002598&sec_id=140001239

and

http://www.relevantbibleteaching.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=140002768&sec_id=140001239


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Brent Barnett

 2006/9/7 15:13Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Hi Blake,


Simply stated, I am saying repentance for salvation is of God. When it is said repent and be baptized, it is not of ourselves, it is of God unto salvation in Christ Jesus. In this respect it is not a works on our Part but a works on God's Part by the Holy Spirit and the Birthing of Jesus Christ in the Believer by the Father.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

They cannot fall away, They are Christs' and He is our. The first repentance is of God and impossible to loose, lest the repentance if they could fall away would be putting Christ to shame, saying His life and His repentance in the believer is not enough to save them. Thus making the Cross to no avail and week unto salvation by God the Father. Taking it out of God's hands and putting it in the works of the sinner to attain his own salvation by works.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/7 17:44Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Is not repent an be baptized something we do?

Is not believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God something the Father does.

Matthew 16:16-18 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If The Revelation is connected to the Rock. What is the Church built upon? That Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.

That revelation is what we are repented to by God not by our agreeing that we are sinful and repent from dead works.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Then we can say I was a sinner. What are we to repent of now. 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. This is past. This is present: 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because He is born of God.

Man cannot repent unto salvation and never will. How many times did Jesus tell Israel to repent. Did they? Have They? There is only repentance in Christ Jesus and to be in Christ Jesus It takes the revelation of God the Father that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. Then we can repent when the truth is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit and He convicts us of Sin, Then we can confess and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/8 0:04Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ormly,

Quote:
Are we to believe, by the simplicity of your stated opinion, that there will not necessarily be a Spirit to spirit comfirmation that will bring the changes spoken of by Chambers?



I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that a person cannot know their own salvation. If I have been saved, I will know as God will have revealed this to me by His Spirit.

However, your question was "If I say I am saved and I point to the Jesus as the reason, am I born again?"

Just because a person says they are saved, points to Jesus, confesses faith, does not mean they are born again. The determination of this belongs to Christ and Christ alone. I cannot say whether you are saved or not. That is not my place.

A person is saved when Christ saves them. It is that simple. There is no formula by which we can measure salvation. There is no rite of passage that guarantees our salvation. Being born again is a choice of God. He decides who is saved and who is not. We ask to be saved. He decides whether or not to save us.

You asked me, "Am I born again?" and "Am I a disciple of Jesus?" These questions I cannot answer. I am not Jesus. I cannot tell you whether or not you are saved, born again, or a disciple of Jesus.

If any person doubts their salvation, they need to work that out with Christ, the Savior.

In Christ,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/9/8 8:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

beenblake wrote:
Dear Ormly,

Quote:
Are we to believe, by the simplicity of your stated opinion, that there will not necessarily be a Spirit to spirit comfirmation that will bring the changes spoken of by Chambers?



I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that a person cannot know their own salvation. If I have been saved, I will know as God will have revealed this to me by His Spirit.

However, your question was "If I say I am saved and I point to the Jesus as the reason, am I born again?"

Just because a person says they are saved, points to Jesus, confesses faith, does not mean they are born again. The determination of this belongs to Christ and Christ alone. I cannot say whether you are saved or not. That is not my place.

A person is saved when Christ saves them. It is that simple. There is no formula by which we can measure salvation. There is no rite of passage that guarantees our salvation. Being born again is a choice of God. He decides who is saved and who is not. We ask to be saved. He decides whether or not to save us.

You asked me, "Am I born again?" and "Am I a disciple of Jesus?" These questions I cannot answer. I am not Jesus. I cannot tell you whether or not you are saved, born again, or a disciple of Jesus.

If any person doubts their salvation, they need to work that out with Christ, the Savior.

In Christ,
Blake



My Bro. Been,

Our difference is a fundamental one. It lies with my believing the new birth is something apart from initial salvation. I realize I won't have many friends with this view but nevertheless, that's my position.

:-Drm

 2006/9/8 9:40





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