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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Can a lost sinner stop sinning?

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 Re:

Quote:

letsgetbusy wrote:
bro ga,

I want to hash this out so that I understand where you are coming from.

"Be careful! We are saved by the justification of the cross alone by faith alone! We do not earn salvation!"

To be specific, bro ga, we are not saved by faith, we are saved by grace through faith. Grace saves us, faith just allows God's grace to do the work. Faith is the gate of our heart opening up, so to speak.

I don't understand why you would say that I am leaning toward salvation by works when I say that all of our sins are erased when we are born of God. He draws us, He saves us, He sustains us. He makes us pure of all sins. Not some, ALL sins. He said

'As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.'

'thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.'

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out'

The Holy Spirit in every born again believer cannot sin at all. If He can, it is not the Holy Spirit. Of course, we still carry the sin nature around until the fire takes it away at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but Christ in us, cannot sin.

But I am still failing to see where I am leaning toward works salvation. Please enlighten me.




Quote:
To be specific, bro ga, we are not saved by faith, we are saved by grace through faith. Grace saves us, faith just allows God's grace to do the work. Faith is the gate of our heart opening up, so to speak.



Amen!! And when that is properly understood by the Calvinist, their Bible just might come alive to them.


:-(

 2006/9/8 9:50
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

I agree with everything you're saying.
Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.

I wasn't saying that salvation wasn't by grace.

"that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

If I say that salvation is by faith alone you shouldn't rebuke me. It is through faith alone (apart from works) just as it is in Christ alone AND by Grace alone.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God"

It is by grace AND through faith AND through Christ.

Still you gotten off topic.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/10 17:11Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Able didn't do anything of his own righteousness. It was God who worked through him. John 15 and
Romans 3:10-21


_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/10 17:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
Able didn't do anything of his own righteousness. It was God who worked through him. John 15 and
Romans 3:10-21



He sure did do by his own righteousness just as much as Cain did his act by his own rebelliousness. Was God in him also?

Clue: God was in no one.

;-)

 2006/9/10 19:47
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Ormly; "God was in no one." What do you say to the Word of God? What do you say to these verses?

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

John 15:4-5; "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.""

Romans 3:10-12; "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”


_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/13 19:09Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

He is trying to say that God the Holy Ghost was not yet indwelling His people prior to the cross.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/9/16 21:10Profile









 Re:

[u]I would say, that there hasn't been a single sinner, in either scripture or history, that has repented who hasn't:[/u]

[b]1. [/b]Had the Holy Spirit convict him. [b]John 16:8, 2Corinthians 7:10[/b]
[i](Convict does not mean caused)[/i]

[b]2. [/b]Had the Father draw Him. [b]John 6:44 [/b]
[i](Draw does not mean forced)[/i]

[b]3.[/b] Had the ability, or enabling, given to him entirely by God's grace. [b]John 15:5[/b]

[u]But likewise, neither has there been a single sinner, in all of scripture or history, that was saved, that did not:[/u]

[b]1.[/b] "obeyed the gospel" "from the heart." [b]2Th 1:8, 1Pe 4:17, Ro 6:17 [/b]

And I concur with Fletcher, that "forced obedience is a contradiction in terms". True obedience, as [b]Romans 6:17 [/b]says, is from the persons own heart.

Can you show me, in either history or scripture, where a sinner was saved without "obeying from the heart" the gospel???

And can you show me, in either history or scripture, where a sinner was condemned, without "choosing" or without "obeying" sin?

And again, a choice requires the possibility for as well as the possibility not. In order to have a "choice" to sin, there must be the "choice" not to sin, or else it's not a choice at all.

A sinner has the option of either his sin or the Savior. It's entirely his own option. He can either obey "sin unto death" or he can follow "obedience unto righteousness" [b]Ro 6:16.[/b]

Jesus Christ did the work of a Savior, but never did the work of a sinner. God has done His part, by laying down His life. And if a sinner be d**ned, it's because he did not do his own part! It will be because he first choose to sin, and then he choose not to repent.

Man cannot save himself, but man can refuse to allow Jesus to save Him. As Jerusalem who refused to be gathered unto Jesus. [b]Mt 23:37, Lu 13:34[/b]

Men sin, not because God hasn't given them the ability to obey Him, but because they [i]want[/i] to. Men don't come to Jesus, not because they can't come to Jesus, but because they don't want to.

Jesus pointed out that the reason people didn't come to Him, wasn't because of [b]lack of ability[/b], but because of [b]lack of will.[/b]

[b]Joh 5:40 [/b]- "But you are not [b]willing[/b] to come to Me that you may have life"

[b]Mt 22:3 [/b]- "and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not [b]willing[/b] to come."

It would be completely foolish to rebuke a person who didn't have ability. Would you rebuke a blind man for not seeing? Or would you punish a mute man for not speaking? And yet you would say a preacher should rebuke the unable, and propose that God punishes the incapable!

I'm saying that God calls sinners to repent, and preachers must call sinners to repent, because sinners are capable of repenting! And that God punishes sinners, because they are guilty and deserving because they have actually [i]chosen[/i] sin rather then Him.

Our message in preaching, is "whosoever will"

[b]Re 22:17 - [/b]"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And [b]whosoever will[/b], let him take the water of life freely."

 2006/9/16 21:54
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Preach it!


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Hal Bachman

 2006/9/19 21:38Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Just to make a few points: :)

Phil 2:12-13: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." IT IS GOD WHO WORKS.

Ezekiel 36:26
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

Depravity: By definition is the unmeritoriousness of man before God because of the corruption of origional sin. None of our actions can gain favor with God for salvation.

By (our depraved) nature mankind is subject to wrath Eph 2:3...


Like it says in Romans 1:28-29 "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness..."

Eccles 7:20
"There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and does not sin"

Ephesians 2:1
[ By Grace Through Faith ] "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

1 Cor 1:21; Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 2:14; Rom 14:23; John 1:13

2 Peter 2:14
"having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children."

Romans 5:12-19
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

Original Sin:
We all sinned and were all condemned in Adam. If we say we don't have imputed condemnation, then we consequensly say we don't have imputed justification. If we say only our individual works of sin condemn us than you consequently say our individual works of righteousness save us.

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Gen 5:3; Job 15:14; 25:4; Ps 51:5; Gen 3:6,7; Rom 5:12

Origional sin is intended to show our spiritual infection transmitted through reproduction. Sin is inherent in the human condition.

Augustina and Luther agree, sin incapacitates humans from doing good, and because we are born sinners we lack the power to do good. Yet because we willfully choose the bad over good, we are held accountable for our sin.

As Lazarus could not rise from the dead without grace, neither can we choose life when we are dead in our sins.
_______________________________________________

Quote:
Lazarus1719: Jesus pointed out that the reason people didn't come to Him, wasn't because of lack of ability, but because of lack of will.


_______________________________________________

They are not willing and UNABLE to WILL unless Christ does a work in them.
A lost man can not will to choose good and is not pleasing to God apart from salvation. We do not will to follow God untill we are saved and Christ changes our wills. While sin effaces God's image in humankid and general revelation, it does not erase them.

_______________________________________________
Quote:
Lazarus1719:
"I would say, that there hasn't been a single sinner, in either scripture or history, that has repented who hasn't:"

3. Had the ability, or enabling, given to him entirely by God's grace. John 15:5


_______________________________________________


This is exactly what I'm saying. Lost sinners are unable to choose good without God's grace. Or DEPRAVED.

Just think about these verses...

____________________________________________
Baptist Confession of 1689:
"As the consequence of his fall into a state of sin, man has lost all ability to will the performance of any of those works, spiritually good, that that accompany salvation. As a natural man he is dead in sin and altogether opposed to that which is good. Hence he is not able, by any strength of his own, to turn himself to God, or even prepare to turn himself to God.
(John 6:44; Romans 5:6; 8:7; Eph 2:1,5; Titus 3:3-5.)
When God converts a sinner, and brings him out of sin into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage t sinand, by His grace alone, He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good.
(John 8:36; Romans 7:15,18,19,21,23; Phil 2:13; Col 1:13.)"
______________________________________________



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_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/19 23:39Profile









 Re:

The way we answer these theological questions shapes our Christian "World-view". They determine how we view God, how we view sinners, and how we believe we should preach.

It's very important that we have a BIBLICAL perspective on these matters.

 2006/9/20 0:08





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