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letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Yes, brother, I am enjoying this also. I think we agree on alot more than I first thought.

I also agree that God's law, a man's conscience, and his understanding can be defiled and covered (or seared):

1 Tim 4:1b-2 in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

I used to think that the conscience could be covered over a bit (seared only) but the Scripture is clear that it can be defiled, and no longer be pure (1 Tim 3:9, 2 Tim 1:3) or good (1 Tim 1:5 and 19). J Edwin Orr straighted me out on this out with his sermon on conscience:

J Edwin Orr, What Is Conscience? : http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?commentView=itemComments&lid=170

So I do believe the unregenerate man still has the lower millstone of the law within him. But through his thoughts, words, and deeds, he keeps covering it, ignoring it, and rejecting it, until it no longer bothers him. I also believe that the law, by God's grace, is still capable of cutting through his seared and defiled conscience, and piercing (or pricking) his coated heart.

I would invite you to listen to Paris Reidhead's sermon, The Right Use of the Law:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=40&commentView=itemComments

I would be interested to find out what you thought about this message.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/8/29 9:13Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Thanks LGB,

Quote:
I used to think that the conscience could be covered over a bit (seared only) but the Scripture is clear that it can be defiled, and no longer be pure



I think that is well stated, better in fact then my long-winded attempt.

Quote:
So I do believe the unregenerate man still has the lower millstone of the law within him. But through his thoughts, words, and deeds, he keeps covering it, ignoring it, and rejecting it, until it no longer bothers him. I also believe that the law, by God's grace, is still capable of cutting through his seared and defiled conscience, and piercing (or pricking) his coated heart.



Amen on these points. I keenly appreciate your insertion of 'by God's grace'. The law itself was grace to a tribe of unruly men in the dessert; and additionaly we have been sent the Holy Spirit to convict sinful hearts numb to that law, and comfort repentant hearts sensitive to that law. Grace upon grace!

This conversation has sharpened my understanding and expression of this important issue. (thank you) To acknowledge that man may act like a brute beast, is not the same as saying he is in fact only a poor brute beast who has no accountability before God. In this way I think the popular usage of 'total depravity' has migrated from it's once intended purpose to the point that I am wary of it's usage. Suffice it to say that a man stands under 'total condemnation' for his own willful depravity, which is quite different then portraying mankind as a cosmic tragedy, or an innocent bystander hurt by Adams depravity. Christians have long discussed how mankind shares in Adam's depravity, whether it is cosmic, or cultural, or genetic or willful, or all of the above. We only know for certain that men chose sin's darkness over God's light...yet even so God, in his unfailing love, chose to save us.

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

I think it's interesting to note that "gives light to men" precedes "coming into the world", as if to say that the light Jesus embodied is really the same light that was already provided to men...that is to say a restoration of the 'true light' that mankind had abandoned and has all but forgotten. The very Creator who had placed what became the 'lower millstone' in men was now walking among men!

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

There is an understood astonishment in those verses, as if man should've recognized who Jesus was. Again I see this as a confirmation of the original, but worn down 'millstone' you were pointing out.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

And this is the promise of the Gospel, our opportunity to regain what was lost and become God's children.

I realize you know all this, but it is so wonderful to recount!

Quote:
I would invite you to listen to Paris Reidhead's sermon, The Right Use of the Law:



I will brother. I'll have an opportunity while I'm working today!

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/8/29 12:21Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

"man should've recognized who Jesus was"

Some of the other things you said I have thought about, as well as the above, but I have never heard it put that plainly. It seemed to sink in a little better. They should have recognized Him, He expected to be recognized, just as I believe all men should do today. Men are punished for not recognizing Christ for who He is and what He did.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/8/30 0:05Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

"A sinner can stop sinning, by coming to Jesus." And, "God only expects from us what is possible, and what is possible, is obedience towards God." This is wrong, just give me a chance to explain...

In Faith alone in Christ alone by grace ALONE! You John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments(which is impossible!).”

He came to bring SINNERS TO REPENTANCE, not the self-righteous. Yes, he says to choose between life and death but he also says it is impossible one your own! You need Christ to give you a new heart so that you will choose life! If there were two ways into heaven Jesus would've said so. Therefore sinners are totally incapable of Choosing not to sin. Yes, it is impossible for a depraved mind to love God without the GRACE OF GOD. GOD COMMANDS THE IMPOSSIBLE (WITHOUT HIS HELP) TO BE DONE!

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Only Christ was righteous. The only reason you can be declared righteous is by the justification of Christ's blood! The cross! The working of God in a fallen heart! This my friend's is the good news! That which we are incapable of doing, God has done!


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Kristy

 2006/9/6 18:33Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

ga,

I would say that it is not a matter of one being right and the other wrong, both of you are actually correct.

1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In the words of Alan Redpath on the Holy Spirit, "HE CANNOT POSSIBLY SIN!"

However the old man, that is our old sin nature, will continue on with us, he is burned away at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So we have flesh, which has 'no good thing,' and the new nature, that has no bad thing. And they are at war.

Now, of course we all still sin, we make God a liar if we say that we don't. But it is also possible to live a life victorious over sin. This is the Spirit-filled life. Not a baptism of the Holy Spirit, but a continuously Spirit-filled LIFE. An outpouring that continues, not a one-shot experience. Walking in the Spirit, victorious over sin.

All this, of course is granted by God, but the Scriptures specifically say that we do not sin when we are born again, as far as receiving or being dismissed of God's wrath.

Lots of details to this concept, but I hope you understand the spirit of what I am saying.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/9/6 23:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:

sermonindex wrote:
Quote:
But was the sinner capable of not choosing sin?


No because he is depraved and born into sin, that is clear teaching of scripture. "Or did they simply do what they had no choice but to do?" [b]yes[/b] we all have gone astray and he has laid on HIM the trangressions of us all. People could choose holiness and righteousness but that would not suffice at the jugement seat that is why Jesus died and shed His blood.

His dying was not a "help" for us to add our righteousness and good choices to it, but it is EVERYTHING! without it we are lost and in darkness. In the old testament blood sacrifice and men trying to live as best as they could sufficed but after the death of Christ all are given the free gift of eternal life, the tree of life opened freely. The Flaming swords of the Law being put away and free acess through faith and repentance to this new and living way.



If I read you correctly you are overlooking many who weren't depraved. The first being Abel who comes quickly to mind.

The word "depraved" with the connotation being "reprobate" is from reform teaching designed to lead one's thinking about God along certain lines of interpretation. No where can the word "depraved" be found in the KJV. Is it implied? Perhaps, but certainly because of [i][b]willful[/i][/b] ignorance, i.e., man's freewill to choose with results that follow.

Respectfully,

 2006/9/7 6:09
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Part 1

Ormly: Quote:"If I read you correctly you are overlooking many who weren't depraved. The first being Abel who comes quickly to mind. The word "depraved" with the connotation being "reprobate" is from reform teaching designed to lead one's thinking about God along certain lines of interpretation. No where can the word "depraved" be found in the KJV. Is it implied? Perhaps, but certainly because of willful ignorance, i.e., man's freewill to choose with results that follow.""End Quote.

All men are depraved even Abel was depraved. Depraved meaning: being utterly incablable of doing good.
"Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—"
Men are inherently sinners. You are utterly incapable of choosing to do good without God bearing fruit in you.
Romans 5:19 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Eph 2:1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"
Col 1:21 "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled "
Is 64:6 "But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away."



------------------------------------------------
Part 2

Well, here we have an issue on the correct interpretation of 1 john...
First, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

"1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1 John 3:7-8 He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."

Practicing Sin:
Based off of the context the passage is clearly talking about a practice of sin being a manifestation of being lost. John is talking about making sin a practice. Otherwise, if this is saying if we sin we're all be Children of the devil according to 1 John 3:6. And obviously thats not the right interpretation.

Practicing Righteousness:
Being born again does not give us the miraculous abaility to live a sinless perfect life. We have a new heart which desires righteousness and loves God but yet God alone brings about sanctification. John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

letsgetbusy: Quote "All this, of course is granted by God, but the Scriptures specifically say that we do not sin when we are born again, as far as receiving or being dismissed of God's wrath." End Quote

Be careful! We are saved by the justification of the cross alone by faith alone! We do not earn salvation! Eph 2:8! Nothing in my hands I bring, but soley to the cross I cling! John 15.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/7 12:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
All men are depraved even Abel was depraved. Depraved meaning: being utterly incablable of doing good



But Abel did do good. God said so.

:-o

 2006/9/7 13:01
brentbarnett
Member



Joined: 2006/8/31
Posts: 20
Wisconsin

 Re: can sinners stop sinning

The issue is not quantifying the number of sins. The issue is that the quality of the person through and through, most fundamentally in their heart, is corrupt. This is why we need to be reborn. The unbeliever is dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1). He cannot stop sinning. He may be “moral.” But he cannot change his heart. He may give to charity, but that does not mean that he loves those in the charity or God. The issue is that all men who are without Christ suppress the truth that they need to worship God. Only the grace of God can get them to stop their evil ways by changing their fallen heart.

Brent Barnett
www.relevantbibleteaching.com


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Brent Barnett

 2006/9/7 15:07Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

bro ga,

I want to hash this out so that I understand where you are coming from.

"Be careful! We are saved by the justification of the cross alone by faith alone! We do not earn salvation!"

To be specific, bro ga, we are not saved by faith, we are saved by grace through faith. Grace saves us, faith just allows God's grace to do the work. Faith is the gate of our heart opening up, so to speak.

I don't understand why you would say that I am leaning toward salvation by works when I say that all of our sins are erased when we are born of God. He draws us, He saves us, He sustains us. He makes us pure of all sins. Not some, ALL sins. He said

'As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.'

'thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.'

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out'

The Holy Spirit in every born again believer cannot sin at all. If He can, it is not the Holy Spirit. Of course, we still carry the sin nature around until the fire takes it away at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but Christ in us, cannot sin.

But I am still failing to see where I am leaning toward works salvation. Please enlighten me.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/9/8 1:22Profile





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