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letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Coming home

I believe also that a sinner can stop sinning only by being washed in the blood. A non-Christian can't stop sinning because rejecting Christ is a sin.

As far as the question of whether a man is a sinner by choice or nature, I believe we are sinners by choice.

I think about Paris Reidhead's conversation with a college student who was telling Bro Paris that he sinned because he wanted to, and Paris was telling him, (paraphrased) 'No, you sin because it's in your nature.' Years later Bro Paris related how the hot-shot preacher out of Bible school was wrong, and the unbelieving college student was right.

Now, I do believe that we inherit Adam's sin. He chose the penalty of God, and so do we. It was neither in Christ's nature to suffer for sin, but he chose the cross. He chose to be like us so we could choose to be like him. So I believe our choices change our path and change us.

Rom 1:26b their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature

One thing that J Edwin Orr preached about that was new to me is how the conscience can be corrupted...

1 Tim 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Heb 19:4 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The corrupt conscience is defiled by our sinful ways, to reject God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

In a nutshell, I think it is a man's decision to reject Christ the Holy Ghost that sends him to the lake of fire, not his nature. He does have a sinful nature, but a man also has rejected the offering of the Holy Ghost, he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, he has limited the Holy One of Israel. It is this that sends him to hell, not just the fact that he can't help sin.

On the flipside, I do agree that it is easy to preach in the flesh so much so that a man falls to the ground just out of emotional fear, and that we must learn the difference between emotional reasoning to accept the doctrine of Christ, and good, old-fashioned Holy Ghost conviction. This I know to be a truth, but I cannot claim to have preached under an anointing that made people weep under conviction just from my words(that's what I covet, though).

This said, if we set down that hammer of God's law, we have set down the ONLY weapon God has ordained to prepare men for the grace of God.

Psalm 19:7b The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul

I do believe that this refers to the 10 Commandments, but also the words of Christ, and Scripture in general. No man is capable of living up to the standard listed in the Beatitudes alone, unless He is born of the Spirit, but that is no reason not to preach it. God's method is to preach the standard that a man cannot attain on his own, and this brokenness he experiences in understanding this drives him to the cross.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/8/24 23:13Profile









 Re:

I think that the most important part of all of this, is that we simply:

1. Tell sinners they are accountable for their sins.

2. Therefore they must come to Jesus because Jesus is the answer.

 2006/8/24 23:34
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 Re:

Quote:
1. Tell sinners they are accountable for their sins.

2. Therefore they must come to Jesus because Jesus is the answer.


I think we need to tell the world that Jesus is risen from the dead, that He died on the cross for the sins of mankind and He offers salvation freely, this is surely good news. When the soul realizes it crucified Christ with his own sin then that is saddening, but to know that God showed mercy and love in Christ to overlook that and offer salvation is the [b]good news[/b] (gospel).

No man can be paticularly "accountable" for the actions of adam and the fallen race, we inherit this! so ALL are under judgement, all have sinned and all deserve punishment apart from our "works" (Galatians 5) it is the body and being that does the works that is paticulary guilty before God, that "all the world may become guilty before God"


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2006/8/24 23:39Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/20
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 Re:

Greg Gordon Wrote:

Quote:
Excellent article by Watchman Nee brother!

"In that chapter a sinner is said to be a sinner because he is born a sinner; not because he has committed sins. The distinction is important."



and

Quote:
No man can be paticularly "accountable" for the actions of adam and the fallen race, we inherit this! so ALL are under judgement, all have sinned and all deserve punishment apart from our "works" (Galatians 5) it is the body and being that does the works that is paticulary guilty before God, that "all the world may become guilty before God"



Jesse,this could be life changing for you! When you finally realize this basic fundamental Christian belief I believe your whole outlook of things will completely change. Like when Paris Reidhead realized the message he was preaching was just secular humanism, and he described how his whole outlook was changed and everything was turned around and made right. I believe the same thing could happen to you when you realize this basic Christian doctrine of original sin and the sin nature of man and realize the message you preach is just condemnation and death without the Good News - like the Pharisee's who heaped boulders on peoples shoulders and lifted not a finger to help them. You must understand that sinners sin because they are sinners NOT sinners are sinners because they sin. When you come to this realization, I think you will start to see your preaching change and you will start to hear love and compassion and mercy in your voice as you plead in love with sinners to flee the wrath to come. I believe you will start to see masses of people fall under conviction (being angry for being condemned is NOT always a sign of conviction)and see people miraculously set free from the bondage and slavery of sin and the devil.

I hope you will pray about this and look into what others like Greg Gordon and Watchman Nee and Ernest O'Neil and Finney and Wesley have to say about regeneration, the new birth, the sin nature of man and original sin. I think this realization could change your life.

Jesse wrote:
Quote:
Yes a sinner is capable of stopping his sin. That is why God "commands all men everywhere to repent."

God only commands the possible. He doesn't require apples from peach trees. He doesn't cut down and burn peach trees for not bearing apples.

and

But yes, a sinner does not have to sin.



This type of attitude and way of thinking effects the way one preaches in a very negative way.


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Patrick Ersig

 2006/8/25 0:19Profile
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 Re:

Came across this elsewhere and it struck me quite differently;

"Man is very far gone from [u]original righteousness[/u], and is of his own nature [i]inclined[/i] to evil, so that the flesh lusts always contrary to the Spirit. And this infection of nature does remain in those who are regenerated, whereby the lust of the flesh is not subject to the law of God."

Rather than "original sin". [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12040&post_id=93450&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=34#93450]ON THE SPIRITUAL CONFLICT ~ Thomas Reade[/url]

It seems to have much to speak to this question here.


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Mike Balog

 2006/8/25 0:36Profile
letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
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 Re:

As far as how this effects the gospel presentation, I agree with Laz. As far as what the understanding of the sinner is, in my opinion, should be, the sinner sins because he wants to. That was Bro Paris' point.

I think that Laz is doing more of a work than many of us combined, so our prayers are with you in that regard, Laz.

How we should feel about the lost is, I suppose, debatable. Of course, we should love them, and of course they need the truth, but how we should feel about them personally leaves a lot of room for opinion. We have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but yet we must agree that hell is their just desert if they do not turn.

Our evangelism pastor said this the other day (paraphrased): 'A fanatic is anyone who loves Jesus more than you.' I think that sometimes it is easy to look at the method of preachers and find fault, when they may not be at all preaching the message they want to preach, but the message that God has ordained for the people under their voice.


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Hal Bachman

 2006/8/25 13:55Profile
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Posts: 672
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 Re:

Quote:
As far as what the understanding of the sinner is, in my opinion, should be, the sinner sins because he wants to.



That statement does not follow Scripture. If you read the book of Romans you can get pretty good view and understanding of the sin nature and original sin. The book of Ephesians is also a good place to start. The Scripture I point out previously is a perfect example of what the Scriptures have to say on the subject. What do you do with this Scripture and the rest of the book of Romans?

Quote:
The Apostle Paul puts it pretty clearly in Romans 7:25 (NLT) "25Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin."

You can't get much clearer then that.

The grace of God gives us the power to be free from sin. We all have a choice to accept the grace of God or deny it. Those who deny it will go to hell in bondage to sin and their inborn sinful nature unable to stop sinning. Those who accept the grace of God will through the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection have the bondage of sin broken and receive power over sin having been given a new heart and been born again. Dead to sin - alive in Christ.



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Patrick Ersig

 2006/8/25 14:22Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
'A fanatic is anyone who loves Jesus more than you.'



In this context, I'm not sure what this means. I think a fanaticism is not defined by extreme love but by extreme self-will. We shouldn't imply that those who challenge and critique us must not love Jesus as much as we do! (A wee bit divisive and self-aggrandizing...)

The topic of this thread has little to do with style of presentation. That's perhaps the subject of another discussion.

We are talking about substance of preaching, not it's form. It is possible that a preacher can preach 'truth' but never touch on the Gospel. We have all seen, and perhaps admired, bold men who, with righteous indignation to immorality, are zealous and courageous to grab a bull-horn and give homilitical face slaps to indifferent sinners. Yet Paul said that if we are going to preach the law then preach the whole law, including the promise.

So, personally I'm not so concerned about 'harsh' preaching as much as I am concerned about insufficient preaching. Immorality is a symptom of being unregenerate, and exhorting unregenerate people to become moral is missing the heart of the Law itself. Unless we preach the promise of a new heart we don't even understand the very law we claim to reperesent. We must exhort them to repent of their entire lives, of even their decency which in God's eyes is still filthy rags. Anything else, regardless of how moral it may seem, falls tragically short of true repentance.

Even if we give our bodies to be burned but have not love then we haven't understood a thing. If we aren't preaching a desperate repentant faith in the cross of Christ, and a glorious gravepassing faith in the ressurection of Christ, then we are failing to preach the regenerating hope of the Gospel that says men must be born again. If we fail to make clear the liberating hope of the Gospel, and instead major on morality, we will either convince sinners that they are hopeless sinners, or worse yet...lead them to believe they can please God with enough moral determination. (Talk about fanaticism...)

""Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/8/25 15:06Profile









 Re:

Patrick,

I would stick to the King James Version. The New Living Translation and other modern translations have not only updated the language, but have also updated the theology in many verses.

Letsgetbusy,

I agree with your post 100%. And I grealty appreciate your prayers. We are hoping to reach 100 campuses this school year with the simple message of REPENT and BELIEVE in JESUS!

[b]WHY DO SINNERS SIN?[/b]

Simply because they want to. And for that reason, God will punish them.

Paris Reidhead said, "God does not send sinners to hell for Adams sin. But God sends sinners to hell for their own sin."

In order to be "accountable" you need to be "responsible". God does not hold us accountable for something we had no control over. God holds us accountable for the things that we are responsible for.

Sinners go to hell for their willful rebellion and treason against God.

Sinners don't sin because they have to. They sin because they want to.

So when we preach, we are not trying to comfort the victims of Adams sin, but we are confronting the criminals that willfully violate God's law.

Bad theology produces bad evangelism. How we view sinners and their sin effects how we talk to sinners about themselves and their sin.

We must make sure that we have a biblical perspective on sin. And when we understand that an each individual is personally responsible for their own sin, it will radically change the way we not only view them, but also how we preach to them.

What does the King James Version say about sinners and their sin?

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light"

As John Fletcher earnestly contended for:

1. "All our salvation is of God in Christ"

and also

2. "All our damnation is of ourselves" because of, what Fletcher called, our "avoidable unfaithfulness" and our "avoidable sin"

Fletcher said, "nothing would be more absurd than to bind us by laws of a civil or spiritual nature; nothign more foolish than to propose to us punishment and rewards; and nothing more capricious than to inflict the one or bestow the other upon us; if we were not moral agents."

[b]HOW ARE WE TO PREACH?[/b]

And as far as our preaching goes, the Apostle Paul set for us a good example:

Ac 17:17 - "Therefore [b]disputed[/b] he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him."

Ac 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days [b]reasoned [/b]with them out of the scriptures,

Ac 18:4 - And he [b]reasoned[/b] in the synagogue every sabbath, and [b]persuaded[/b] the Jews and the Greeks.

Ac 18:19 - And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Ac 24:25 - And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way

We are not to just scream and yell randomly at sinners things about Jesus and things about the bible.

But we are to [b]dispute, reason, [/b] and [b]persuade,[/b] in an open air setting, as the Apostle Paul did.

[b]WHAT ARE WE TO PREACH?[/b]

Our overall message must simply be:

1. Mans Sin
2. Mans Savior

Regarding mans sin, we must preach not only that man has sinned, but that man must repent from sinning. Because unless they repent, they will perish.

A good description of repentance is turning. Or a even more easily understood description of repentance means stopping.

When I repented of selling drugs, I stopped selling drugs.

When I repented of street fighting, I stopped fist fighting.

When I repented of robbing houses, I stopped robbing houses.

That is true repentance. Anything else is a false repentance.

So our message to the world must be the same as the disciples "Stop your sinning!"

Because it says of the discples that "they went out, and preached that men should [b]repent"[/b] Mr 6:12

But our message is not merely that man must stop sinning against God, but also that man must put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ!

[b]Jesus did both:[/b]

Mr 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: [b]repent[/b] ye, and [b]believe[/b] the gospel.

[b][u]So to sum up my points:[/b][/u]

1. Man is accountable because he is responsible. "Our damnation is of ourselves".

2. We are to confront criminals in our preaching not merely comfort victims.(though some people are victims of circumstances, in which case as Christians we should comfort)

3. We must dispute, persuade, and reason with sinners, about "sin, righteousness, and judgment to come."

4. We are to preach a two fold message: REPENT and BELIEVE. Another way of saying it would be, "turn from sin and trust in Jesus."







 2006/8/25 15:48
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I feel we are tangling a number of issues here together. I think we have consensus that

1) Man is responsible for his sin

2) That repentance is irrefutably part of the Gospel

2) That Jesus saves sinners

It also occurs to me that this thread could vector off into a discussion about Jesse, as well as out-door preaching methods. I think that would be abit unproductive. Frankly Open-Air preaching can tend to be too glorified, or much of an issue by some people, who are awed by the courage and devotion displayed. I also admire and want to learn from the Open-Air preachers, remembering my first encounters in college with fearless campus preachers. However,whenever Open-Air becomes the topic of conversation people polarize on style more then content.

Perhaps to boil it down, another issue we are discussing is the order of salvation, which I realize is a bit tedious. I suppose it matters more to scholars then it does to the poor sinner who believes and repents, or to the poor sinner who repents and believes... the order gets accomplished as somehow the Spirit puts both into a truly regenerate heart.

In the end I think it helps to know the audience we are speaking in. God knows the audiences, even churches, that need to hear a serious repentance message, and He knows places where we need a larger portion of hope in our fuel mixture. Fixed formulas regarding style of preaching are utterly useless.

An example of audience and context...

Quote:
When I repented of selling drugs, I stopped selling drugs.

When I repented of street fighting, I stopped fist fighting.

When I repented of robbing houses, I stopped robbing houses.

That is true repentance. Anything else is a false repentance.



What if you are talking to a pretty "decent" guy like me? I never acted out any of those things...if this is true repentance I guess I could feel pretty good about myself. In fact, I might even look down on you for admitting you did these things! Afterall, I grew up in the church, and went to a Christian High School so what more repentance do I need? (choke)(edit: I hope it's obvious that I do not actually feel this way! I am trying to make a point that simply telling people to stop doing sinful acts is not the same as preachng the Gospel)

At this point you might follow Paul's example, just as you quoted...

Quote:
Ac 17:17 - "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him."



If the Gospel is simply "Stop your sinning!" then why do devout people need to repent? Why did Charles and John Wesely need to be born again? By the time they were experiencing the saving grace of God firsthand, they had already been Anglican missionaries to the colonies. According to the standards of their day...and certainly ours, they were already Godly-acting men. Yet Wesley himself admitted he was but 'almost a Christian' when he had sailed to Georgia.

I don't think it can be stressed enough...being Born Again is a crucial element of the Gospel. If our first-born nature is capable of entering Heaven then why would Jesus teach Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel that even he needed to be born again? If our first-born natures could satisfy God there would be no reason distiguish Christianity from Judiasm. Indeed, there are some who say we shouldn't have.

But praise God, there is this new message...

Quote:
...not merely that man must stop sinning against God, but also that man must put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ!



Amen Jesse!

MC




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Mike Compton

 2006/8/25 17:44Profile





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