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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Thou shall not kill

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 Re:

Quote:
Curious to note though, that those brave folks never directly harmed the terrorists.



But obviously that was there intention. Did God intervene? Perhaps, I cant know that for sure. But that plane crashed for some reason... it's speculative at best to say these men didnt reach the hijackers.

As for "would Jesus have attacked the hijackers?" ... thats speculative too since it doesnt appear that Jesus was in a situation such as that. However, interesting to note that several times Jesus was in a situation where the crowd was ready to attack him... and what did He do? Walked thru the crowd. Did He make Himself invisible? He may have... but that could be seen as a self-defense. I cant do that... I'm not God. And under those circumstance, if I was confronted with an angry crowd because of what I preached, I would not defend myself. I believe that is a clear teaching.

So maybe we should stop speculating about what Jesus would do in a situation that didnt happen to Him, and concentrate on scriptures teachings in the OT that self defense is ok in the sight of God. This is NOT "eye for eye". Self defense is not a pound of flesh. It is a God given instinct, just like man's will to live.

Krispy

 2006/8/21 13:28









 Re:

Let me clear up a few things, for me, personally.

If I was on that plane (Flight 93), (as who I am now, not 5 years ago) I would not have fought back against those terrorists under any circumstances. Instead, I would have been preaching my freaking heart out (while following the Spirit) to everyone on that plane till I was killed. I would let God control the fate of that plane, for I believe he would have the ability to put it down before it went to the White House, or whatever, if it be His will. I would have just had to stay atune to the Spirit.

Krispy, I do not know how you can deny Jesus' statement of turning the other cheek and other of his non-violence statements. Do you not understand, Krispy, that the Devil is out to get you? Everything like a burglary or a murder that goes your way I believe is somehow linked to the Devil. The Devil has you on his list, Krispy, and has deceived you into believing that as long as a person doesn't directly identify your beliefs as part of why he is attacking you, that it is OK to defend yourself against this person. That is wrong.

You've missed the big picture in the realm of things-- there is a spiritual battle going on. You must always take everything as if it is apart of that, and thus resist using physical force against it, otherwise-- the Devil would win that battle. If you attack and subdue a burglar who is burglarizing your house, you let the Devil win. The true Christian way would be to follow the Spirit... maybe God wishes for you to witness to this man, boldly. Maybe God wishes to let you be burglarized. But to presuppose that you must use force against this man, is wrong. The Devil loves it when you repay evil with evil. The true Christian way is letting God protect you and your children. If a burglar comes in, let God take care of it. That does not mean he will stop it. But in the realm of things he has control, he is in control. And he will decide where that man's soul goes. "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord."


Jordan

 2006/8/21 13:29









 Re:

Quote:
True, if you commit crimes knowing the consequences, you volunteer yourself for those consequences.



A-ha! You are correct! Anyone who enters into someone else's home to do harm to a family enters at his own risk and volunteers for the results of such action.

The best thing that can happen in that situation is that law enforcement is allowed to bring that person to justice. But in the middle of the night the cops are not in my house waiting for someone to break in. This is why the laws in most states allow for self defense. And so does the Word of God.

Krispy

 2006/8/21 13:31









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Well Jordan... since you dont know anything about me, my history, etc... I will conclude that you conclusions about me are completely without merit.

I'm not talking about vengeneage... I'm talking about self defense. Even in the case where my child is molested. If I walk in on it, things will happen. If I find out about it, then the law will handle it. I would not seek out the person to kill them myself. That is the difference. Sorry you cant see that.

And thank God you were not on Flight 93... for several reasons. #1) Because I would not wish that on anyone! #2) Because there would have possibly been thousands killed because you did nothing to prevent it, and #3) Our government could have been severly disabled, allowing more and more bad things to happen to our country as a result of the lack of stability.

And who's to say Beamer didnt preach to the others? Thats a broad assumption.

Krispy

 2006/8/21 13:33









 Re:

Krispy, I think the reason your arguments are so appealing to me is because they are so intuitive whithin the system of justice that I am used to. It is hard for me to advocate non-violence when so much good has come through the use of violence - dismantling the Nazi regime, ending slavery, etc.,
However, I am still left wondering whether the end justifies the means.

A basic right to self-defense (even involving violence) seems obvious, yet this is a right that mysteriously seems to never have been exercised by Jesus nor his disciples.

Bro. Krispy mentioned earlier the example of Jesus walking through the crowd as a means of self-defense, but I am not really sure this is comprable to mere mortal human pulling a trigger in the face of a criminal. Jesus' deliverance was miraculous and by the provision of the Father. I am not sure where I can find the biblical principle of God giving man a commission or permission to distribute his justice in the NT, which seems required for a violent act of self-defense to be justified.

Again, Krispy, I am not opposing you, but maybe just probing a little deeper to try to understand scripturally if, in this case, common sense is in accord with God's word.

I think BradW challenged people to come up with NT references in which violence is either used or condoned. I am still interested to hear some responses to this.

Thanks for the great posts so far. This is the first time I have been down this road, and I am still seeing where my heart settles with it all.

-K_DAY

 2006/8/21 14:23
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
Anyone who enters into someone else's home to do harm to a family enters at his own risk and volunteers for the results of such action.



Do you post a sign outside your doors and windows that says "Anyone entering this house with the intention of harming the occupants has thereby acknowledged that their lives may be in danger by the lawmaker who resides within."??



As for self-defense, if we are 'dead to self', as we necessarily should be with respect to being a Christian, what is it that you're defending?
Quote:
This is why the laws in most states allow for self defense.



Again, law of man, not God.


_________________
Brad Wright

 2006/8/21 15:05Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
If you attack and subdue a burglar who is burglarizing your house, you let the Devil win. The true Christian way would be to follow the Spirit... maybe God wishes for you to witness to this man, boldly. Maybe God wishes to let you be burglarized. But to presuppose that you must use force against this man, is wrong. The Devil loves it when you repay evil with evil. The true Christian way is letting God protect you and your children. If a burglar comes in, let God take care of it.



I think this is a valid position to take as a single adult Christian. In fact, it may be the preferred way. However, in my opinion, any man who has these convictions owes it to his future wife to not marry her, and to his unborn children to not bring them into this violent world. Paul warns us that if we get married we will have earthly concerns to deal with. When I got married I realized that I was taking a spiritual vow...to honor and protect another human being without thought of the cost to my own life. My repsonsibility to my wife and children prempts my concern for an intruder.

We want to be led by the Spirit, and we should not assume this is a mystical leading. If you are married and fathering children, rest assured God has charged you with protecting them, as much as in your power. Marriage is God's earthly institution, and it's not just for procreation. One day we will all be glorified with perfect love and marriage's closed love won't be needed, but in this realm a man's strength is provided by God for the covering of his family.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/8/21 15:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My repsonsibility to my wife and children prempts my concern for an intruder. We want to be led by the Spirit, and we should not assume this is a mystical leading. If you are married and fathering children, rest assured God has charged you with protecting them, as much as in your power. Marriage is God's earthly institution, and it's not just for procreation.



Amen, Compton... as usual, you are a voice of reason.

Krispy

 2006/8/21 15:30









 Re:

Quote:
Do you post a sign outside your doors and windows that says "Anyone entering this house with the intention of harming the occupants has thereby acknowledged that their lives may be in danger by the lawmaker who resides within."??



Not in so many words... it actually says "Forget the Dog... Beware of Owner"

Krispy

 2006/8/21 15:38
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Double post ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/8/21 15:45Profile





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