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 Satan and hell

I have seen on many posts references to Satan and hell and have questions about it and the positions of other posters. The Bible says hell will be eternal. My problem with this is that, if it is true, Satan will have his way forever, at least with those who remain fallen to the end. This doesn't seem just or in any way what a loving God would do; allowing His misguided created souls to be tormented forever and His fallen angel a place in eternity.

My conception of hell is that when the earth and the kingdom on earth is restored, all things will be as if we were never fallen in the first place. Satan and hell would simply disappear and it would be as if they never existed. In the last instant, the fallen and Satan would understand (realize) that they have given up their existence, EVEN in the past! That they never existed at all. (And those saved would lose all memory of them and the fall.)

They (the fallen) would indeed gnash their teeth at this. In this way, God could be merciful and the damned would be so eternally (in both directions of time.)

Jake

 2004/1/21 11:15
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 Re: Satan and hell

Hi Jake,

This is a good topic, but I really don't see how you have gotten to these conclusions through the Scriptures. You have posted this in scriptural debates so please post also Scriptures that you believe fit in with your belief. I will God-willing participate in this thread and show clear and plain scriptures to support my view. I am glad this thread has started.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/1/21 11:26Profile









 Re:

Wrtbooks:

There are plenty of scriptural references to hell being eternal. There are also many that tell us about a just and loving God. There seems to be a dissonance between these points in scripture. I don't have any particular points in scripture that support what I wrote; nevertheless, in the scenario I posed hell is in a real sense eternal, but it is an eternal nonexistence. Moreover, burning consumes things. I could not expect scriptures to convey something so subtle. I would appreciate the scriptural insights of others on this point.

Jake

 2004/1/21 12:08
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 Re:

Quote:
There are plenty of scriptural references to hell being eternal. There are also many that tell us about a just and loving God. There seems to be a dissonance between these points in scripture.


Yes the Scriptures do emphatically show that Hell is Eternal, not doubts about that.

Here's the 15 occourences of the word 'hell' in the NIV bible:

[b]Matthew 5:22[/b] - But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[ 5:22 An Aramaic term of contempt] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

[b]Matthew 5:29[/b] - If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

[b]Matthew 5:30[/b] - And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

[b]Matthew 10:28[/b] - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

[b]Matthew 16:18[/b] - And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[ 16:18 Or hell] will not overcome it.

[b]Matthew 18:9[/b] - And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

[b]Matthew 23:15[/b] - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

[b]Matthew 23:33[/b]
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

[b]Mark 9:43[/b]
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

[b]Mark 9:45[/b] - And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[ 9:45 Some manuscripts hell, 46 where / " 'their worm does not die, / and the fire is not quenched.']

[b]Mark 9:47[/b] - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,

[b]Luke 12:5[/b] - But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

[b]Luke 16:23[/b] - In hell,[ 16:23 Greek Hades] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

[b]James 3:6[/b] - The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

[b]2 Peter 2:4[/b] - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[ 2:4 Greek Tartarus] putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
-----------------

I thought this would be a good starting point to bring to attention some of the Scriptures that talk about and refer to the place called: 'hell'.


Quote:
There seems to be a dissonance between these points in scripture.


The only reason you think this is because you really haven't read enough about God's holiness and righteous requirements.

[b]Joshua 24:19[/b] - Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD . He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.

[b]Psalm 24:3[/b] - Who may ascend the hill of the LORD ? Who may stand in his holy place?

[b]Isaiah 43:15[/b] - I am the LORD , your Holy One, Israel's Creator, your King."


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 2004/1/21 14:51Profile
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 Re:

Jake, Jake, Jake!

I am not going to talk down to you, but I must word this strongly because the ideas you presented must be corrected firmly and immediately. These are issues that many bring up as they learn of salvation, but do not let them become strong doubts! If Christianity were as unreasonable as many make it out to be there wouldn't be such a great history of brilliant men in the faith.

"Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven" is the old saying that is based on your same misconception. You have learned that Satan reigns in hell by watching Loony Tunes, not by reading Scripture or the classics of the saints. Satan will not preside over or rule in hell. He will be a captive in at least as much eternal torment as the others there. Hell will not be his kingdom but his eternal defeat and punishment. I am sure that many there will know that he is a reason that they are there and scream curses at him for eternity. There will be no parties in hell, no rock-n-roll, no sex, not a single joy. One passage of Scripture leads us to believe that one of the worst parts of hell will be having strong desires and passions but never getting any satisfaction or relief. Imagine all your fleshly appetites at their peak at once and nothing to even take the edge off and multiply that by a million.

Scripture teaches that in the end once we see the judgement and have the wisdom of heaven we will praise God's holiness for casting the unsaved into hell. We will not be mourning for them or crying out about injustice- we will be praising a God that is infinitely higher and above the millions of people He raised up from the dust of the earth.

Scripture also seems to teach that there will be various levels of punishment in hell. Some will have it better than others.

You must not think of God being responsible for damning people. He created us in perfection and it was through our sin that we fell away. In His grace and mercy He is saving a remnant! We should all go there but for His compassion and desire to have a love gift of a redeemed humanity to forever worship His Son. If one cannot imagine an eternity of worshipping a King as heavenly then that person had better do some serious rethinking about starting to follow Christ. It is better to never begin than to start and go back!

Finally there is one attribute of God to remember above the rest. God is love, God is just, but Scripture calls Him Holy, Holy, Holy! That is the only time Scripture uses the third degree of repetition to emphasize an attribute of God. That is significant.

 2004/1/21 16:31Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I don't have any particular points in scripture that support what I wrote;



Then your views are nothing more than conjecture, the wisdom of man. I'll take the wisdom and truth of God over that any day, even if it is much more uncomfortable to swallow.

I wish there was no hell, no eternal punishment; but to believe that would be a denial of the Word of God(see Greg's list of Scriptures) and I can't do that.

To believe that God is too good to condemn anyone to eternal hell is what the Holy Spirit called - through the prophet Isaiah - a 'refuge of lies'(see chapter 28). God is merciful and compassionate beyond human comprehension but He is also perfectly holy, righteous and just. The rejection of His infinite and eternal love shown on the cross of Calvary demands infinite and eternal punishment.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/1/21 17:45Profile
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But let no obstinately wicked professors dare to apply any of the divine promises to themselves: "For it is not meet to take the children's meat and give it unto dogs:" No, to such the terrors of the Lord only belong. And as certainly as Christ will say to his true followers, "Come, ye blessed children of my Father, receive the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world;" so he will unalterably pronounce this dreadful sentence against all that die in their sins, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
-George Whitefield
Sermon 26: "The Eternity of Hell-Torments"
http://www.pioneernet.net/rbrannan/whitefield/sermons/WITF_026.HTM

It demands our highest gratitude, that we who have long ago deserved this misery are not yet plunged into it. While there are thousands who have been adjudged to this place of punishment, before they had continued so long in sin as many of us have done, what an instance is it of divine goodness, that we are not under this fiery vengeance! Have we not seen many sinners, on our right and left, cut off in their sins? And what but the tender mercy of God hath spared us week after week, month after month, and given us space for repentance? What shall we render unto the Lord for all his patience and longsuffering even to this day? How often have we incurred the sentence of condemnation by our repeated rebellion against God! And yet we are still alive in his presence, and are hearing the words of hope and salvation. O let us look back and shudder at the thoughts of that dreadful precipice, on the edge of which we have so long wandered! Let us fly for refuge to the hope that is set before us, and give a thousand thanks to the divine mercy, that we are not plunged into this perdition!
-Issac Watts

He who is weary of God will soon make a hell for himself, even in this world.
-Willam Howells

John Wesley of Hell
http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/serm-073.stm


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/1/22 10:02Profile









 Re: Nobody

Nobody said:

"Finally there is one attribute of God to remember above the rest. God is love, God is just, but Scripture calls Him Holy, Holy, Holy!"

Jesus told us to love our enemies. This is where I get the dissonance from. If Jesus (God's Son and the One who will judge us all) commands us to love those who hate us, how can He send anybody to an everlasting burning in Hell? This is contradictory.

Jake

 2004/1/23 4:51
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 Hell -- Not That Obvious

Jake,

The New Testament teaching on hell is not as simplistic as you thought. Even references to hell are not that frequent (interestingly, both "heaven" and "hell" did not have too many direct references, in contrast to the evangelical lingo).

The words "Hades" (in Greek) and "Sheol" (in Hebrew) are often translated hell. However, the biblical usage of these words seems to refer more of a temporary holding place for souls of the unbelievers before the Lord's second coming.

The conventional idea of "hell" as a place of torment for those condemned to eternal perdition seems more in line with the "lake of fire" in the Revelation. That phrase did not appear too many times in the NT.

Some might argue that the "outer darkness" (where the gnashing of teeth and weeping takes place) is yet to be distinguished from Hades and the lake of fire.

Finally, regardless of terminology, the Scripture discuss even less about what it means to be in "eternal perdition."

I know one thing for sure, hell is not a place I want to end up in.


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Sam

 2004/1/23 5:33Profile









 Re: Hell -- Not That Obvious

I know one thing for sure, hell is not a place I want to end up in.

Agent001 thanks for your insight. I'm definately with you on this.

 2004/1/23 5:40





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