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MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Emergent Church

I received this email today from Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries.

August 8 - Will the "Emerging Church" Submerge Your Church?
The short answer is no if solid, Bible-believing Christians preach truth and stand on the Word of God. However, in today's world of apostasy, the stakes are higher and so are the casualties. The Emergent Church is not new, but it hid in the shadows until recently. I recently had this email:
Jan: When you first started talking about the Emergent Church I thought, sure, this is a California experience. I didn't have to worry. How wrong! In Michigan it is now everywhere!

When Pastor Bob DeWaay told me one and a half years ago that it was the next step beyond seeker-sensitive and worse than that, I thought, how is this possible? He was right. As a matter of fact, CBS News did a feature on it calling it a powerful new movement and the fastest-growing one in Christianity with up to 20 million participants. The clip is played on the broadcast from August 5 now posted on "radio archives" here: http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio/mp3/
When you really learn of all its goals and practices, this should send chills down your spine.

Roger Oakland, one of the best analysts of this movement, and Bob DeWaay, reported a lot of startling information on air. I have made my own conclusions here. The emphasis goes well beyond the Bible to extra-biblical paraphernalia, extrasensory images, sounds, smells, silence, darkness, icons, statues, rosary beads for Protestants, Yoga, contemplative prayer--all for a FULL SENSORY IMMERSION in the divine. Why are these things even necessary when the "old time religion" did well preaching a solid gospel with no bells and whistles? Why do we have to encounter God with our "senses"? He lives within us--that's sufficient. He's a prayer away, hardly dependent on candles and incense and icons. Why do Protestants have to draw on Catholic and Orthodox practices to "get closer to God"?

Try to pin these folks down as to their beliefs and be prepared for frustration and confusion. Pastor DeWaay related on air how frustrating his debate was with Emergent leader Doug Pagitt as Pagitt dodged every question making sure the Emergent Church would NOT be defined. My conclusion: It draws on many religions but is leading to the participation in the one world religion.

According to EC leader Brian McClaren, most anyone can follow Jesus including Buddhists and Hindus. He emphasizes "injustice, oppression, greed, and war." Finally, a major truth comes out: This is just the old social gospel. But his most troubling statement is that we need to ". . . emulate Roman Catholicism to become more mystical in our reverence of God." Why did we have the Reformation, I ask? So that we could get far from Rome and closer to God! He has it backwards, as is his whole movement. The longing for the mystical will lead one to become a victim of every wind of doctrine!

As Roger Oakland states, this is not a revival but a return to darkness. It cannot be countered until Christians become better informed about it and when the darkened rooms, candles, and other touchy-feely services spring up in your church and you say something and demand a return to basic Bible doctrines and solid gospel preaching. These Emergent leaders are not "brave new voices." They are deceptive wolves devouring naive, usually young "sheeple," leading the Gen X-ers and Gen Y-ers down a path to further darkness. What will these youth "emerge" into? Confused, questioning young people with no solid grounding, believing in nothing and thus falling for everything.


I received this email from Australia today. It shows that our churches are in deep trouble but let's not end the thought there. God can still do a great thing in our churches; yet the Bible talks about the end-time apostasy. In II Thessalonians 2:3 it talks about the "falling away" in the end-times. Some translations call it the "great falling away" . . . in other words, no small thing. The writer states this:

Jan: Where I live in an area of the North Coast of New South Wales, Australia, every church is compromised, every church. To receive any good, sound Bible teaching, I have to rely on the internet and my Bible and the help of God's Holy Spirit.


Awaiting His return,
Jan Markell




_________________
Melissa

 2006/8/8 11:15Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Emergent Church

There have been a few discussions here concerning the emergent church, they may help bring some more clarity and balance here...

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10849&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Emergent Church 1[/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=11383&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]The Emergent Church 2[/url]

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/8/8 11:27Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re: Thanks Ron

I guess I'm a little behind huh? :-P


_________________
Melissa

 2006/8/8 11:43Profile









 Re: Emergent Church

Melissa,
okay Jan Markell calls the emergent church "deceptive wolves", what's new.

Every different faith look at Christ, or new movement, it gets hammered. There was a day when Methodism was pilloried by "old time religion".

what "old time religion" is, I don't know.

There was a day when the pharisees represented "old time religion", and 120 scared people quaked in fear in an upper room, but they were of one accord, they were an authetic community, and God the Holy Ghost gave them an intense Encounter, a world changing Encounter.

I agree with Mike Compton, the "emergent church" is a rather decentralized thing.There's a few "luminaries" who write as "leaders" of the emergent church and they serve as targets for others within the faith to snipe at, whats' new?

Everybody within the faith snipes at each other, it's just grievous. Even outside of the faith, looking at the RELIGION of Islam, those boys KILL one another, over sectarian lines such as Sunni or Shia, over God, or in their case Allah.

It's just distressing, Jesus didnt say He was a Lutheran or a Baptist, He just said "I am", and they crucified Him for saying that.

If I was to rent a storefront here in Chicago, get some folding chairs, put out tables rugs candles and invite other believers I know, to just tarry in prayer for the Lord, tarry in prayer for revival, no worship music, no churchianity, just a bunch of heart broken, hungry thirsty desperate followers of Jesus gathered in prayer, and I call it an "emergent church"...will Jan Markell call me a "deceptive wolf"?

Do you see? It's so distressing, so heart-rending, because if some of these churches are reaching out to a disaffected "post modern" youth, they get branded and hammered by those who ask, "what's wrong with old time religion?"

to which I say,

BECAUSE IT'S RELIGION!!

They want Jesus.

I want Jesus, I need Jesus, every single day, I want someone who is living in unbelief, to be envious of so great a salvation in me, which is Him living in me.

Respectfully, I disagree with Miss Markell's overall assessment of what she views the emergent church as.

bartle

 2006/8/8 13:44
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Bartle

Have you actually listened to anything Jan has had to say? or are you basing your comments about her on this email I have shared?

I didn't post this to start a debate. I believe Jan Markell's ministry to be one of vital importance in a world full of deception. You can take or leave it, that is up to you.



_________________
Melissa

 2006/8/8 13:56Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7471
Mississippi

 Re:

Bartle wrote:

If I was to rent a storefront here in Chicago, get some folding chairs, put out tables rugs candles and invite other believers I know, to just tarry in prayer for the Lord, tarry in prayer for revival, no worship music, no churchianity, just a bunch of heart broken, hungry thirsty desperate followers of Jesus gathered in prayer, and I call it an "emergent church"...will Jan Markell call me a "deceptive wolf"?

If this would be all you would do, I would not suppose very many people would object except why do you need candles? Would the place not have any electricity to bring any illumination to diffuse the darkness in the room?

The objection people have to the emergant church is the incorporating of new age practices and pagan rituals into their worship. I do find it odd that these epople are busy supplanting God's directives with some of their own, borrowed from other 'religions'. This is idoltry, plain and simple.

Bartle, lest you get all bent out of shape with Christians calling the alarm over cults, you must remember Jesus words when he said in Matthew 24:23-25:
"23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." The only way a devout person can be deceived is when he/she ignores the still small voice within and allows the impressive to supplant the 'still small voice' or, the Holy Spirit. Then you will be on a slippery slope to ruin and oblivious you are on it until it is too late!

Bartle, I would resent it a lot if a person knew somone is a false prophet and refused to warn me and allowed me to learn of this the hard way!

ginnyrose



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Sandra Miller

 2006/8/8 14:15Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
...If I was to rent a storefront here in Chicago, get some folding chairs, put out tables rugs candles and invite other believers I know, to just tarry in prayer for the Lord, tarry in prayer for revival, no worship music, no churchianity, just a bunch of heart broken, hungry thirsty desperate followers of Jesus gathered in prayer, and I call it an "emergent church...


Brother,

the problem with your example is that what you described is not the Emergent church in substance, only in form. Sure you have borrowed some of their orthopraxy, but you haven't mentioned their orthodoxy.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with using candles instead of fluorescent lights or plainchant instead of strumming guitar music in my opinion. In fact, these things may be more 'legitimate' then our modern baby boomer technologies. This appreciation for the ‘ancient paths’ is perhaps the single virtue of emergent Christianity...to recover certain beneficial practices that were lost to modernity.

However if you start telling Buddhists that Jesus simply wants them to be better Buddhists through Him, instead of repenting well then you really would be fully 'Emergent' and quite out of joint with the Churches ancient paths, as well as scripture. In this way, Emergent Christians, who meditate before their ancestor's crucifix, or sing their plainchant psalms, are actually betraying their ancestors beliefs who used these things to express a life and death commitment to Christ alone. In this way, Emergent 'open source' theology contradicts Jesus' unilateral theology because He claimed to be the only door, the only way.

Now I'm not a big fan of discernment ministries...in fact I think they are mostly self-styled vigilantes. However, the faith given to us by our fathers does have a distinctive shape and form...it has boundaries and limits. I’m not concerned so much about their mystical stylings…who cares if they light candles or some incense. I’m concerned about teaching a darkened mystical open-source deism, adorned with crucifixes and Christian icons, that negates true biblical faith in Jesus. Today, as in the early days of the Church there are sincere groups just outside the fringe boundaries of the ancient apostolic faith. As much as we hate conflict in the body, not everything that includes itself as Christian really is. That's not to say that these individuals aren't Christians...I certainly would not say that. In addition, I agree with many of their heartfelt complaints against our mega McChurches, but you can't form beliefs on just hearfelt complaints.

I know a church fellowship of dear brothers and sisters near where I live that calls themselves “emergent’…They create a coffee lounge atmosphere, with plenty of candles and Japanese lanterns. Yet, I see they are young and creative, sincere and humble saints who have a spiritual heart for the lost. Because of this, I wince when they happily refer to themselves as “Emergent”…because in point of fact they are not truly Emergent in their theology. They are simply styling their church to be more 'authentic', or at least different then their parents. But make no mistake...to them the Gospel is not up for negotiation. There willingness to declare a unilateral faith in Christ disqualifies them as a truly Emergent Church…but alas they prefer the name because they reject mainline expressions Christianity.

The problem is I agree with their delimma. I think Emergent critiques of mainstream Christianity are valid, and on a creative level I can appreciate the merits of using candles, or other ‘ancient’ art forms for creating less hyper, more contemplative and inviting atmospheres of worship. Yet in spite of their valid critiques, as well as creativity and sincerity, I think their post-modern theological response to the problems in the church is flawed.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/8/8 15:56Profile









 Re: Ginnyrose

Quote:
Bartle, lest you get all bent out of shape with Christians calling the alarm over cults



I'll try hard not to "get all bent out of shape", thanks for that love touch by the way.

why would a Body of believers [i][b]need[/b][/i]
candles?....because maybe we ARE trying to experience what those 120 followers of Jesus in that upper room experienced. Maybe because we don't want electricity.

the darkness is not in the room, it's in people's hearts.

Some of my dearest times with the Lord have been on my knees, with a Bible in front of me, lit solely by candles, is that new age ritual? or pagan ritual?

It sounds pretty 18th century to me, or maybe 1st century.

What are the prayers of the saints to God? They are incense to Him. I burn incense, not because it's a ritual or a spiritual counterfeit, but because I want my place to smell nice, in the same way I vacumn and scrub the floor, but I'll tell you what, everytime I light incense or even barbeque, I think of what is pleasing to the Lord, the prayers of the saints are incense to Him, much as there was a time, when meat sacrifices in the old Temple in Jerusalem were a pleasing aroma unto the Lord.

I think of Jesus when I light that incense,and my prayers to Him, much the same way when I slake my thirst with some good ole Chicago tap water and ice, I think of the Living Water that He offers, I think of that woman at the well....everytime.

you wrote:

Quote:
If this would be all you would do, I would not suppose very many people would object




what if I start weeping in recognition of my own unprofitableness, or somebody else did, or somebody started dancing, or 5 people started weeping, or maybe laughing, or however the Holy Ghost moved on a group of believers tarrying for Him, what would that be to anyone?

you wrote what people "object" to....I personally don't know any "new age" or "pagan" rituals...I do know that I like prayer labyrinths, I also believe that foot washing is a blessed ordinance. I was at one meeting where the Holy Spirit led us to wash each other's feet, and everyone in that meeting remembered that to this day, it was that blessed of God.

people "object" to everything on this forum, they squabble and fuss about what version of the Bible is correct and right, this preacher and that preacher is an apostate. Sister, in all due respect, if you NEED someone human to warn you of a false prophet, you better stay hid up in your prayer closet and seek discernment, coz false prophets, sooner or later, are always unmasked, thank God.

ginnyrose, you're a woman of south, a little bit older, right? I'm not asking that disrespectfully, but what I am striving to say is this: that what God does in a northern state inner city ,Chicago might look totally different from a church in Missisippi.....or what you can handle.

Does that make it apostate?

If Jesus is at the center of such a work, does that make it apostate?



 2006/8/8 16:03
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re:

Compton you wrote :

Quote:
Now I'm not a big fan of discernment ministries...in fact I think they are mostly self-styled vigilantes.



I agree with you completely and avoid them, however Jan Markell doesn't seem to be that way. I have suscribed to her ministry for over a year, and although I don't agree with her 100% about everything, she is pretty balanced.


_________________
Melissa

 2006/8/8 16:12Profile









 well spoken bro MC

you wrote;

Quote:
However if you start telling Buddhists that Jesus simply wants them to be better Buddhists through Him, instead of repenting well then you really would be fully 'Emergent' and quite out of joint with the Churches ancient paths, as well as scripture



yowza, thats pretty bad stuff.

Quote:
Now I'm not a big fan of discernment ministries...in fact I think they are mostly self-styled vigilantes.



true.

you wrote:

Quote:
But make no mistake...to them the Gospel is not up for negotiation. There willingness to declare a unilateral faith in Christ disqualifies them as a truly Emergent Church…but alas they prefer the name because they reject mainline expressions Christianity.



what does that say to you?

check it out, could satan have used one or two people to preach a gospel that is no Gospel at all, to discredit the work?

you know the answer to that.

I mean open air preaching is very Biblical, but if you go to that one open air preachers website, I forgot the name, but it's so bad, it reminds me of what a satan worshipper would cook up to discredit this high and holy calling.

good words bro, your brother bartle

 2006/8/8 16:24





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