SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Majoritity or Minority Text-What difference does it make?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 Next Page )
PosterThread
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
For isn't 99% truth is a lie afterall?



Firstly, the bible is not the truth. The bible even says that Jesus Christ is the truth. The bible points to the truth.

Many people in history have realized that the bible needs to be considered 100% accurate and considered to be truth, if they are to use it to defend their positions. So long as the bible is 100% truth, then they can use it to their advantage.

However, that doesn't make the bible truth. The bible does have truth in it, the gospel of Christ. However, the bible is not truth itself. This means that there are truths in the bible and some error. Likewise, Jesus Christ lives on earth in the body of His Church. The Church bears truth (Jesus dwells in believers), but the Church is not the truth (Jesus is the truth).

Quote:
To say that Scripture has errors is to create doubt in all other areas in It.



The authenticity and authority of scripture cannot be proven by any emperical evidence on earth. We do not have original documents of the bible. The bible cannot be proven.

The bible is only proven by Christ indwelling in a believer. I know the bible is true when Christ makes it true in me. I can read the bible and say, "Yes that is true. This has happened to me. Christ lives in me."

Otherwise, a person who accepts the bible is doing so on blind faith, because there is no proof.

As such, this means the bible is completely and totally dependent on Christ. Apart from Christ, the bible is nothing. To say the bible has error in it, does not mean the bible is entirely false. That is like saying every preacher that has ever preached is entirely false because they were not perfect. Is that true? Should we reject every teaching that didn't come directly from God? This would mean rejecting the bible too, because it was written by fallible men and women.

God can certainly use a fallible men and women to spread His gospel message. He has been doing so since Christ departed for Heaven. God can also use a fallible bible to spread His message.

As far as error is concerned, I am not saying the bible is false. I do believe, however, that some areas of the bible are incorrect. What those are, I do not know. I also believe that God has lead His Church, and those who truly know Christ have maintained and preserved truth in the bible by His leading. However, I am not so foolish to think the Devil has not made His own changes, that has caused the Church to be fooled. We are fools to think the bible is perfect and then use it like a book of law to enforce others.

I value the bible immensely. I cherish the words. However, I am also aware that the bible is not the exact Word of God. There are many areas in the bible that do not coincide. I do not have a list of them all. One exists in the story of Christ leaving the tomb. In Matt 28, it says there was one angel who moved the stone and spoke to Mary and Mary. In Luke 24, it says there were two men standing there who spoke to Mary and Mary. So was there one or two?

Now, if this story were told by humans, we could say, "No big deal. What does it matter if there was one or two? This doesn't effect the message." However, if the bible is the Word of God, the word that proceeds from the mouth of God, then we run into a problem. God is perfect. No one who is perfect would ever make such an error.

This, among other such discrepancies, clearly shows that the bible was written by fallible human beings. Clearly, God does not want us to depend on the bible as our source of faith. He does not want the bible to be our authority or God. Jesus Christ is to be the Word that abides in us. Jesus Christ is to be our Lord. When Jesus lives inside of a person, the Word of God comes through that person.

The message of God is one as Ron pointed out. There is one gospel. This one gospel lives inside each and every true believer. Each of us have our own story, our own testimony, our own record and account of what God has done in us. We each bring God glory. We reflect the son, just as the moon reflects the sun. This is our purpose and what we were created for.

There are many gospel accounts, many believers, many testimonies, and one Word. This one Word is in agreement throughout all. The Word of God is perfect and infallible. The Word of God abides in us as it says 1 John 2:14.

Christ is perfect, we are not perfect. The bible bears a message of Christ. This message is perfect. The exact details and words of the bible are not perfect. The bible is not infallible.

In Christ,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/17 12:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Do you see this difference yet?


Oh, I see the difference that you want to establish clear enough. I have seen it from your earliest posts and I reject it.


Quote:
Is the witness "theirs" or "Gods"?


They are God's witnesses and their witness is inspired. Their words are God's words; God breathed.

Christ believed in the inerrancy of the Old Testament scriptures and endorsed them constantly in his witness. The New Testament scriptures have the same status as the Old Testament scriptures that Christ believed 'could not be broken'.

Quote:
The Word of God is perfect. The writers of the bible were not perfect.


But how would you know what Christ had 'said' if the witnesses had not recorded it. No one is claiming that the witnesses were perfect only that their writings are perfect.

Perhaps you would like to cite an example of an 'imperfect' scripture so that we all know what you have in mind.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/8/17 14:04Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
But how would you know what Christ had 'said' if the witnesses had not recorded it. No one is claiming that the witnesses were perfect only that their writings are perfect.



It's not about hearing what Christ has said with your ears or reading with your eyes, it's about believing in what He has done. I have come to a knowledge of Christ, not by the testimony of saints, but rather by what Christ has done in me. I believed in Him and He changed me. I have been united as one with Christ and that is how I know Christ. Not because of the bible.

Indeed, I could not come to believe unless I first heard about Christ. However, the testimony of Christ can come through any of His believers, not merely the bible. Even if the testimony was never written, it would have succeeded throughout generations because of Christ working in and through people.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/17 14:35Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Even if the testimony was never written, it would have succeeded throughout generations because of Christ working in and through people.


This is one area where your error is most obvious. Did Christ pray for you in John 17? He prayed for only two categories of people...“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”
(John 17:20 KJVS)
His prayer was for 11 men and those who would believe their testimony. Did He pray for you?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/8/17 15:49Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

[b][i]Quote Beenblake:

"the bible is not the truth. The bible even says that Jesus Christ is the truth. The bible points to the truth. "[/b][/i]

If the bible is not the truth. I could care less what it says about anything, let alone what it points to.

You are indeed subtle..I think we have different 'Christ'(s) here.


 2006/8/17 15:55Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear mamaluk,

So here is the big question in response to your statement, and anyone else that wants to answer may do so as well.

Is Jesus = bible?

If Jesus is the Word of God and the bible is the Word of God.....
If Jesus is the truth and the bible is the truth....
If Jesus is the expression of God and the bible is the expression of God....

then Jesus = bible.

Please explain to me how this works? Do we place our faith in Jesus or in the bible?

Do we worship Jesus the God, or Jesus the book?

How do the two connect? How is it we can say the bible and Jesus are both the Word of God?

Thanks,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/18 12:26Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear philologos,

Indeed, you keep me thinking. That is why I am glad you have given up on me my dear brother. I just hope that we can both come to a mutual agreement someday.

Quote:
Did He pray for you?



Firstly, Jesus said "their" word. Jesus did not say "my" word. What do you think about that?

The word of the apostles did not need to be written down in order to succeed many generations. Their word could have been passed orally.

As a note, I am not denying the importance or significance of the bible. However, I think our current perspective on the bible is corrupt. We have turned the bible, which is the words of the apostles, into the words of God. We have declared that the bible is the very words of God. This I believe is error.

The bible is the words of the writers. The message of the bible, the meaning which is only discerned by the Spirit, has come from God. The writers wrote in their own words the message of God. This is the testimony of Christ. Jesus came from God. He is the message. This message is recorded in the bible.

I don't think it's entirely wrong to call the bible God's Word either. The thing about statements and words is that they may have different meanings applied in different contexts. It is important therefore to look at what the statement declares in the culture it is being used. In our culture, to say the bible is the Word of God implies that the bible is the very literal words of God. It implies that God Himself wrote the bible. This is not true. Even Jesus committed in the above verse that the bible was written in the words of the apostles.

What is it that we mean when we say "Word of God"? This is key. When we say Jesus is the "Word" and the bible is the "Word" do we mean they are one and the same? What are we saying by this? What are we communicating to people, especially those who don't know Christ?

In the sermon you gave on the word, you made an awesome declaration about how Jesus is the Word. Your explanation was inspiring. You spoke about a word expresses, and Jesus is the ultimate expression of God.

So, how do we go from this to the bible? This is the big question. How do the two relate?

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/18 12:44Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

beenblake,


John 4:23-24
[b] 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT [i]AND [/i]IN TRUTH: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT [i]AND[/i] IN TRUTH (not what we think to be true, I hope).[/b]

According to your assertioins, the verses above would waste your time since you claimed that the Bible has no authority and is not the truth.

I honestly doubt your faith, as to which 'Jesus' you worship. If our foundation is not Scripture, our words are as good or bad as any one on the street, really, doesn't matter at all.

A Christ in 'spirit' alone could well be any 'jesus' from any othe spirits.

A Christ from and untruthful book and a non-authoritative text is but pure imagination or of evil spirit.

Emotional love of humans don't add up to a hill of beans in light of Christ's love.

[b]John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [/b]

I feel silly even responding to you, because if you don't think that the Bible is truth, what I am trying to do here anyways.

The Bible is either the Truth or not-so-true, speechless...

Please try to read the entire Bible again, from Genesis to Revelation, reading the Bible in bits and pieces can be most unedifying, at times confusing, prove Scriptures with Scriptures, and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. I believe that only the Holy Spirit could convince you of the Word's truthfulness and authority since He is the author of It.



 2006/8/18 13:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

beenblake's

Quote:
Firstly, Jesus said "their" word. Jesus did not say "my" word. What do you think about that?


We only know 'his' word through 'their' word.

The passage from John 13:31-16:33 was spoken exclusively to 11 men; his apostles. They were given to him for a unique purpose and in John 17 He is praying for them alone...“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”
(John 17:9 KJVS) I know we often take these words to our hearts as a personal comfort but in their strict context they related to the remaining 11 apostles. To this same exclusive group He had promised...“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
(John 14:26 KJVS) Again we often take these words as a personal comfort but the context shows that they were addressed to those 11 men. This is an extraordinary promise. The Holy Spirit would accomplish 2 exclusive works in these 11 men.He would teach them all things
He would bring to their remembrance all things Please notice the repetition of "all things". These men are to become the human depository of the witness of Jesus Christ. Others might remember bits and pieces but these would have 'all things' brought to their remembrance. Not only would they be a perfect archive but they would be taught 'all things' by the same Spirit. Their teaching would not be like that of any others; they would be the definitive teachers of truth. These men will be the perfect record of the witness of Christ and the perfect expositors of the truth. It is easy to miss all this if we forget that John 13:31-16:33 is addressed to that exclusive group.

It's not over yet... “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
(John 16:12-14 KJVS) This exclusive conversation now continues and further elements are added to our list...He would guide them into all truth.
He would show them things to come Notice that little word 'all' again. We can collect them together now.
1. He will teach them 'all things'
2. He will remind them of 'all things'
3. He will guide them into 'all' truth These promises were never made to anyone else. I am a passionate believer in the witness of the Spirit and the Spirit-led life, but that is not what is being referenced here. This is a unique commission and enabling of the 'witnesses'. I have never received this commission and neither has anyone else. Not even Paul!

Where would this unique treasure store of truth be located? In 11 men. We know them by name and in the 'gospel' we have the personal reminiscences of 3 of them; Peter is the eye-witness behind Mark's account, and Matthew and John would later write their own accounts. This means that if the ancient tradition regarding the authors of the accounts is reliable and there really is no cause to doubt it, Matthew, Mark and John contain 'all things' that the Spirit brought to their remembrance and Spirit inspired 'teaching' relating to these things. They contain not only what Christ did and said but also 'all' truth and 'things to come'.

One of these 3, Peter, gives an amazing testimony“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
(2Pet 3:15-16 KJVS)A little exercise in logic will reveal that Peter here regards the writings of Paul as scripture. In fact the word translated 'other' is the Greek word λοιποι which means 'the remainder'. In other words the Old Testament is only part of the scripture. The scripture cannot now be complete without the writings of Paul. Peter witnesses to the 'scripture' written by Paul by declaring that it was the result of 'wisdom given' to Paul ie revelation. Peter is here endorsing Paul's revelation. A man who was specially commissioned to be taught 'all things' has been taught some of those 'all things' by Paul and Peter recognizes the authenticity of Paul's contribution. He adds his seal to Paul's revelation.

This same Paul whose 'revelations' were endorsed by Peter also has something to tell us about scripture.“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
(2Tim 3:15-17 KJVS)All scripture, including this very word which Peter endorses, is God-breathed. Inspired is not quite the right sense. Inspired means to breath into, but θεοπνευστος means 'God breathed out'. ie the scriptures were 'spoken' by God. I am not defending a crude dictation methodology here but this imagery puts the origin of the word in God's mouth.

This testimony is endorsed again and again in scripture.“knowing this first, that [the scope of] no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation, for prophecy was not ever uttered by [the] will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of [the] Holy Spirit.”
(2Pet 1:20-21 DRBY)

“Brethren, it was needful that the Scripture should be fulfilled, which [u]the Holy Spirit spake[/u] before [u]by the mouth of David[/u] concerning Judas, who was guide to them that took Jesus.”
(Acts 1:16 ASV) And the same Holy Spirit who spoke 'by the mouth of David' spoke by the pen of the New Testament writers.

The New Testament is not just the witness of men to the truth as the Neo-Evangelicas (Barthians) claim. It is the God-breathed witness 'by the mouth of' men. Writing of the Old Testament writers Peters says...“Concerning which salvation prophets, who have prophesied of the grace towards you, sought out and searched out; searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which [was] in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which [belonged] to Christ, and the glories after these.”
(1Pet 1:10-11 DRBY) The prophets were not bearing a human witness to the truth. It was the Spirit of Christ within them who was 'testifying'. (this is the same word 'witness). The New Testament writers similarly are not bearing their own witness. They are the channels through which the same Holy Spirit continues to bear witness.

I believe strongly in the Spirit's ability to speak truth and guidance into the lives of his children but I do not confuse it with the unique testimony of the Spirit in the scripture.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/8/18 14:27Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear mamaluk,

The meaning of John 4:23-24 is simply this: Christ lives in us.

We worship God in Spirit and truth. This means the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and we worship God's Spirit by our spirit submitting unto Him. To worship God is to be united to Him as one. To worship in truth means that we are true. When we worship, our worship is pure and true. It means that our love for God is true. We truly love God with all our heart, and this is made true by the Spirit of God living in us.

On biblical authority....

If the bible is the authority, then it must be obeyed. You must obey the bible. What happens when you do not obey?

If I do not obey the bible, I may be forgiven. I will not be sent to Hell because I did not obey the bible. However, if I do not accept Jesus, then I am sent to Hell.

There is a big difference here. Obedience of the first kind is based upon works. To accept Jesus is based upon faith of what Jesus did.

This is what I mean by saying the bible has no authority. Jesus claimed He was master of even the Sabbath, despite the what the law said. He is the authority of all things. The bible is not. The bible is a record of the law and the teachings of Jesus. It is a recording.

Imagine going to see your favorite band in concert. The concernt was awesome. You had so much fun, you came home and told your friend. "Sorry you missed the concert, it was great." You friend said, "Oh yeah, I saw it. I was there. I saw the whole thing on TV." Would you say watching the concert on TV is the same as seeing it in real life.

You can read all about the death and life of Jesus, but it will mean nothing unless you experience it yourself. Jesus said, "You must be born again." We must be baptized into the death of Jesus.

You can read the bible all you want, but you will never find the truth unless you are baptized by the Spirit. You must share in the death and resurrection of Jesus. You must experience it on a Spiritual level. You must goto the concert.

Hope this helps,

In love,
Blake


PS....

Quote:
I honestly doubt your faith, as to which 'Jesus' you worship.



Try reading Matthew chapter 7.


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/8/18 15:13Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy