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beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

By the way...

Thank you philologos for taking the time to write back. I will take a look at that video when I have time.

May Christ be yours,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/14 13:54Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Quote Beenblake

[i]Scripture is a testimony of the Word of God. It is not the Word of God. Rather, Christ is the Word of God. Scripture testifies about Christ.[/i]

If Scripture is not the Word of God, It IS NOT a testimony of God. Without the written Word, the living Word is only a figment. They carry equal weight.

Harold Lindsell's "Battle for the Bible" helps quite a bit over this issue. I can really see the powerful influence of Karl Barth first hand from this thread. Quite bothersome.

Philogos and Diane, praise God for your discernment and knowledge. In my mind, undermining the written Word equates assaulting the living Word.

Blake, downplaying and separating Christ from the Word is a dangerous call.

I'm a believer in 100% inerrancy and infallibility, though I don't know or understand all of Scripture, with God's help and by His grace, the Holy Spirit will continue to teach me till I die.

This thread reminds me of Gresham Machen's warfare, followed by F.Schaeffer's in the early 90s.





 2006/8/14 14:47Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
what of the book of enoch as referrenced by the apostle James?



James never claimed that Enoch was part of scripture. He just mentioned it. Never said it was inspired. Paul quoted pagan philosophers and Luke mentioned the use of other sources, but that doesn't make those inspired scripture. Enoch isn't included because it was never accepted as being scripture from the ealiest canonization. It didn't meet the criteria.

same goes for the apocrypha found in the 1611 KJV. Those books weren't canonized to begin with. From what I understand, they were only added due to political pressure...but they were still labeled as apocryphal...not inspired by the mouth of God.


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Denver McDaniel

 2006/8/14 18:57Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
James never claimed that Enoch was part of scripture. He just mentioned it. Never said it was inspired. Paul quoted pagan philosophers and Luke mentioned the use of other sources, but that doesn't make those inspired scripture. Enoch isn't included because it was never accepted as being scripture from the ealiest canonization. It didn't meet the criteria.

same goes for the apocrypha found in the 1611 KJV. Those books weren't canonized to begin with. From what I understand, they were only added due to political pressure...but they were still labeled as apocryphal...not inspired by the mouth of God.



I made a mistake, it was the apostle Jude. And indeed, he never made a claim that the book of Enoch was scripture. Instead, he quoted from the book of Enoch in order to support His arguments, much like we do with scripture today. If the bible is 100% perfect and infallible, then the quote taken from the book of Enoch would also be 100% perfect and infallible. If the book of Enoch is endorsed by the bible, used as an authority by which to defend an argument, and it is the Word of God, then would not the book of Enoch also be the Word of God?

Many people want to say the cannonized book of the bible is complete, perfect, and final. If it is complete, perfect, and final, then why is it missing pieces? Where is the scripture Jude was talking about when He said, "9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'" Where is this missing scripture?

I am not saying the bible is false. I love the bible and believe it is a gift from God. However, there is a big misconception that the bible is a perfect and infallible book. As though, word for word, it is a complete authority on all things. This is not true. If the bible was completely perfect in word, and a complete authority on all things, then it would be perfect. There would be no error or discrepency anywhere. It would be a complete book. It is not. The bible is missing scripture. The bible has many errors in the details. It is not perfect and infallible.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/15 10:04Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Diane,

I am sorry, but I seemed to have missed your post somehow. I hope it is not too late to reply.

Quote:
So our words should have more weight than Scripture? This would seem to encourage trust in man.



Our words should not have more weight, but they should be equal and in agreement with scripture. On the night I was saved, the Word of God came through all the disciples of Christ whom I met that evening. They each were filled with the Holy Spirit and used by God to testify of Christ. When I recieved this testimony, the Holy Spirit began to convict me of my sin, and this lead me to give my life to Christ.

The point of this is to realize that Christ can use you if you make yourself available to Him. The Word of God lives inside of you. Your life is a testimony. You are a walking and living bible. Everyone that knows you hears this testimony because of the Spirit living inside of you.

It is not that people are trusting in you. They see Jesus in you. Because of this, they will also desire to seek out Christ because of what He has done in you.

Quote:
Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Mat 4:4
Where are these words? Where is God’s mouth? I need to know because I need these words for my survival.



John 6:35(NAS)
"Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.'"

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. That is the whole point. You cannot live on bread alone. You need to have Christ in you. He is the bread of life. In the model prayer, Jesus said, "Give us this day our daily bread." This is not a physical request, it is a spiritual one. Jesus was telling us to ask for Him. When we pray, we should ask Jesus to come into us daily. We need His life inside of us, so that we may live.

Jesus is the Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

John 6:33(NAS)
"For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."

Please, don't mistake my message. I am not saying the bible is useless or pointless. I am saying it has been placed in the wrong perspective. The bible is inspired of God and did come from God. The Lord has preserved it over the years, and it will be fulfilled.

The bible bears a message from God. This message was given to messengers, prophets and apostles. The prophets and apostles then recorded what they heard and saw. This record, what we call scripture, is not the words of God, but it does bear witness to the Word of God. This message is from God.

What we must understand, however, is that Jesus is the Word of God. We must be completely and totally dependent on Him.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/15 10:39Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The point of such was to establish this: the prophets and apostles would have had to submitted unto God 100% in order to present an infallible message. They would have been perfect and infallible.

So how is submission 'rape'?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/15 12:28Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
So how is submission 'rape'?



I think there is a great misunderstanding. I am not equating the work of the Holy Spirit with rape. I was proposing a question which was "Did the Holy Spirit rape them of their will?" Obviously, the answer is no. The Holy Spirit would not do such a thing as He is Holy.

The above question then followed with this question: "Or did these men and women submit willing unto their Lord writing as they were directed, but with error as they were with error?"

My point was to establish that the writers of the bible submitted willing unto the Lord. As such, in order for the bible to be perfectly recorded, their submission would have to be perfect. The writers of the bible were obviously not perfect as only Christ is perfect. (Only God is good.) Since the writers of the bible were not perfect, then how is it possible the recording of the bible perfect?

Think of it this way. If all the writers of the bible were perfect, then all four gospels of the bible would coincide perfectly in every way. However, since the gospels were written by fallible men, the four gospels have discrepancies.

I believe that the bible is indeed inspired of God. As such, I believe the Holy Spirit lead and directed the writers of the bible as they submitted unto God. This means the message of Christ was kept.

However, to say the bible is the "word" of God is entirely a different matter. Such connotes that the very words of the bible are the words of God. This is simply not true. The literal words of the bible are the words of men. The message and meaning has been delivered through words of men. Because of this, the bible is simply not perfect and infallible in literal word.

We cannot say the bible is the Word of God as though it is the very words were written by God Himself. There is an immense danger in doing so. To know God, we must have the Spirit of God inside of us. Knowledge of God is not simply absorbing information. Rather, it is an intimate and personal relationship. God is our savior. A person cannot say, "Jesus saved me" because they read about it in the bible. When I say, "Jesus saved me" it is because it really happened. It is a real life event that changed my life.

This is how we know God. We are born again. We are transformed. Reading the bible may lead us to an understanding of this event, it may even lead us to this event. However, the actual event of Christ dying on the cross and being resurrected can only happen when we have experienced it spiritually.

However, this truth is not being taught. Instead, the bible has replaced this true baptism. The teaching goes something like this..."Accept the bible and you can be saved." In addition to this, the Church is constantly told to obey the bible.

Does not anyone see the danger of this? Our works should be a fruit of Christ. We deny the Word of God in us, and instead live by a written document. Is that not the same as living by the law?

We talk about the bible having all authority. If Christ is our authority and we have submitted unto Him, then the bible will be obeyed naturally. It will not be a matter of our work. It will be a matter of Christ living in us. The bible will have no authority or dominion over us. Instead, we will have submitted unto Christ, and His Word will abide in us. His Spirit in us will produce fruit naturally.

Why is it the Church so desires to live under laws? Why do we not live for Christ? Submission to Christ is an act of the heart. It doesn't matter how many deeds we do, it must come from the heart. It means giving up everything to Christ in our heart. He will then lead us. This requires a huge amount of faith and trust. Following the Spirit is not as simple as reading a book of law where all the dos or donts are outlined.

When will we make Christ our Lord? When will the bible be for teaching and instructing, but the authority be unto Christ?

Do you not see this?

I make this appeal in love for I wish all to come unto a true knowledge of Christ which only comes by unity with Christ. I hope you can see this and do not think of me as someone trying to attack the bible or God's Word, or teach anything false.

In love and in Christ,
Blake








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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/15 22:28Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

beenblake's

Quote:
Think of it this way. If all the writers of the bible were perfect, then all four gospels of the bible would coincide perfectly in every way. However, since the gospels were written by fallible men, the four gospels have discrepancies.


You are repeating a familiar misconception here. There are not 4 gospels. If you look carefully at the headings of a KJV you will find...
The Gospel according to St Matthew
The Gospel according to St Mark
The Gospel according to St Luke
The Gospel according to St John

Please note, not 'a gospel' according to... but 'the gospel'. The gathered accounts of Christ's life and death were collectively known as 'the gospel'. There is only one gospel; The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This one gospel has 4 separate witnesses. In a court of law would you reject the witness of 4 individuals because they varied. Would that not rather support the authenticity of the witnesses? Particularly if the original speech had been in a different language?

To conclude, as you do, that 4 witnesses discounts the authenticity of their witness is wrong thinking. “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matt 22:29 KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/16 7:23Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

There are NO discrepancies amongsts the 4 gospel books OR ANY OTHER BOOKS. The Gospels were written from 4 perspectives. Christ was presented as Jehovah as King in Matthew, Jehovah as Servant in Mark, Jehovah as Man in Luke, and Jehovah Himself in John.

As for other "discrepancies","inconsistencies" or "errors" could be understood with the works of the finer Hebrew/Greek scholars such as EW Bullinger for one. I had read through the entire Bible numerous times, and studied for years, and found the Scriptures, with the help of different sources
to be totally without inconsistencies or discrepancies.
Difficult passages even, could be understood when studied with proper division, such as when dispensationally compared and comprehended.
One must not make assertions of any discrepancies or errors in Scripture just because one has not attained the full knowledge of It or told by some religious "authority" or such. It takes a great deal of time and diligence , if not a life time with serious studies. In the present time, not too many people have or are willing to invest such time to study and learn Scripture, It takes prayerful patience and humility for sure.

I definitely do not pretend that I understand ALL Scripture, but have all the intent to continue searching Scriptures daily as commanded by the apostle Paul.

To say that Scripture has errors is to create doubt in all other areas in It. Therefore, it's all too easy for satan to spread this notion in believers mind, to steer them away from the Bible but to follow a mystic approach in searching Christ or spiritual matters. For isn't 99% truth is a lie afterall?


































 2006/8/17 0:53Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
Please note, not 'a gospel' according to... but 'the gospel'. The gathered accounts of Christ's life and death were collectively known as 'the gospel'. There is only one gospel; The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This one gospel has 4 separate witnesses.



Exactly. This is exactly what I am trying to say.

The message of the bible is inspired of God. However, it is told through 4 seperate witnesses. The message of Christ, the gospel, is perfect. The exact and details are not perfect. The Word of God is perfect. The writers of the bible were not perfect.

Quote:
To conclude, as you do, that 4 witnesses discounts the authenticity of their witness is wrong thinking.



Is the witness "theirs" or "Gods"?

I am not saying 4 witnesses discount the authenticity. I am trying to point out that if all four were the exact words of God, they would match exactly. Indeed, the 4 are aligned in that they all witness of Christ. These are inspired of God. However, each is unique because it is a witness. We have 4 seperate witnesses testifying to what they saw and heard.

What was actually written witnesses to the event of Christ, to His life and death. They are the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Do you see the difference here. Jesus Christ is the gospel. The bible is the record of it. The gospel writers are witnesses who gave a testimony of Jesus.

You have the Word of God who is Jesus, and the testimony of Jesus which is the bible.

Do you see this difference yet?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/17 12:17Profile





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