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Christinyou
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 Re:

Hi Blake,

How can we reconcile these scriptures which say many books are are of futility. Study to be quiet. Study to be approved. What are we to study and what are we to disregard?

Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.

1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/8/1 4:39Profile
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 Re: Dealing with bibliolatry

Beenblake said:

Quote:
In order to find Jesus, they must go to Him. They must submit to Him, not merely to His teachings.



Consider this: If you really trusted in me, would you not also fully trust what I say about myself? (If I could be trustworthy about my self-perception) Are my words and my thoughts not literally part of me? Why the dichotomy?

Are Christ's words not literally a part of him? Are we not indeed experiencing Christ when we are assimilating his words?

Can we not fully trust the Bible and the words of Christ to reveal the real Christ, and protect us from trusting in a self-created version of Christ?

Quote:
I am not talking about a mere "over-reliance on the Word." I am talking about a replacement of Jesus with the bible.

Yes, bibliolatry can replace trust in Christ, as I explained earlier, but my argument is that if one really trusts what the Scriptures said, one would indeed come to Christ, and know and trust him.

I would like to emphasize that there is a huge difference between putting one’s trust in what one THINKS the Scripture says, and what it actually says. You don’t seem to emphasize that difference. I wonder if you believe that.

Quote:
When you call the bible, "the Word", you are calling the bible, Jesus.

It seems like you are assuming that those who refer to the bible "the Word" do not actually place their trust in Christ but are using the Bible as a fetish. That is a huge generalization.

I highly suspect that if you had been hanging around our liberal churches for several years, you would have a different perspective. You would be preaching towards a deeper trust in the Word. And you would see how a statement such as this is deadly:

Quote:
Some of these are deceived by the lie that the bible is the Word of God.



While our liberal churches are quickly dying away as a result of their distrust in the Word, this belief continues to lurk, though subtly, in our ever-growing conservative antimomian environments. Essentially the hidden agenda is: "We don't need the Bible, we need Christ." And so a hunger for experience replaces a hunger for truth.

Now, I know that you are not condoning this trend, yet I fear that this easily becomes a bi-product of your message.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/8/1 6:57Profile
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 Re: Yea! I'm perfect!

Phillip said,

Quote:
If you believe the scriptures and they say loud and clear that Christ is in you. That in itself says you are the express image of Christ. 1Jo 4:17



So, since Christ is perfect, then I am perfect. Hey, I like that! I always wanted to be perfect, so no one would criticize me. Now, don’t you dare tell me I am wrong about anything – because really, I’m perfect from God’s point of view – and that's all that counts.

.... see where I'm going?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/8/1 7:06Profile
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 Re:

Is Christ in you? Is He perfect? Amen.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we sin not, are we perfect? Christ has been born again in us so we won't sin. But If we do He is the Advocate with the Father that IF a man sin and we confess God is faithful and Just to forgive, and also cleans us from all unrighteousness. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. As many as be perfect are those that believe and Christ has been born again in them. He is the perfect One making us perfect ones'. The final perfecting act is when we get a new body like His. It must be planted in corruption and raised incorruption. All the rest is made perfect by Him in us. I we died in corruption of our mind and spirit, or we have no salvation. We are already dead to sin and our spirit is His Spirit.

In Christ crucified with Him: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/8/1 13:43Profile
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 Re:

Dear Diane,

Quote:
Why the dichotomy?



There is no dichotomy, I think you are misunderstanding.

In John 3:34, John the baptist is quoted as saying that Jesus's words are God's words. Jesus is the Word of God, and the Words He spoke are the Word of God. By this I agree. Jesus in whole, not in part, is the Word of God, and everything about Him is the perfect revelation of God.

The bible, however, is a recording of Jesus speaking and acting. Jesus is God's perfect revelation of Himself. Jesus revealed Himself to the 12 apostles. These apostles in turn wrote down what they heard and saw. These writings have become the bible. The final result is a testimony of Jesus.

The writings we have are not God's revelation of Himself. Jesus is God's revelation of Himself. The bible is our testimony of that revelation. Jesus is perfect. The bible is not.

It would be no different if Christ came to me and said "Tell Diane I love her." And then I went to you and said, "Diane God loves you." God did in fact say it. However, you cannot deny the fact it was coming from me. In order for you to believe, you would first have to have a certain amount of trust in me. In this little scenario, there is one problem. I become an in-between. I become a wedge between you and God. Sure, God did speak through me. However, your relationship with God is based upon a reliance of me as the messenger acting in-between. You are not hearing God's Word directly from God. Rather, you are hearing a recording or a testimony. Indeed, you may believe what I said because you believe me. However, the real question is, do you believe in God(emphasis on the word "in")? Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

If your relationship is based upon the writings of the bible, then there is no relationship. You are not experiencing the Word of God. You are experiencing a copy. You are not experiencing the real thing. You are reading the experience others have had with Him.

Quote:
Are Christ's words not literally a part of him? Are we not indeed experiencing Christ when we are assimilating his words?



Yes. However, think of it like this.

Let's say you and I work in the same building. I have never met you. I have never heard your voice, seen your face, had any sort of encounter or experience with you at all. However, I have heard all about you. Every person here talks about you. They all speak the truth, but all I have ever known of you is what other people said. They have quoted you precisely, and told me so much, I feel like I know you. However, would you say that I have a relationship with you? Would you say I am friends with you? Would you say that I am your lover?

Though I know about you, I do not know you. Unless I have had a real encounter, a real experience with you, I do not know you.

Quote:
It seems like you are assuming that those who refer to the bible "the Word" do not actually place their trust in Christ but are using the Bible as a fetish. That is a huge generalization.



Please do not mistake me. I am not saying such. I do not know what is in a person's heart. It is not my place to judge. I am only point out the error which proceeds from the mouth. If a person says, "the bible is The Word of God" they are speaking in error. To say such a thing is make the bible equivalent with Christ. It is not.

There are many Christians who are God's chosen people who indeed have been perfected in Christ that are promoting and preaching this lie. They do so because they have been deceived. They are not at fault. The teachings have been passed on by false teachers. However, these lies are being taught throughout Christendom. The Lord will not let them persist. He has allowed it for a time in order to serve His purpose. However, He will not let His people wander blindly forever.

Quote:
I highly suspect that if you had been hanging around our liberal churches for several years, you would have a different perspective.



I have already been in such a situation, and I do understand what you saying. Our works should be a fruit of what is in the heart. Our motivation should be a desire to serve Christ and none other.

As Christians, even though we have been changed internally, we still have the ability to sin. We can still do things our way apart from Christ. There are many Christians who produce works as a matter of earning rewards. They follow the bible as a law. "Just do as the bible says." They follow the bible in deed, while their heart slowly falls away from the Lord. A upright, Church-going, bible reading Christian becomes spiritually depressed so much so, they have suicidal thoughts. They don't realize this depression has ensued because they have drifted far from Christ. They try to mend it by reading the bible more and more, but the words have no impact. Nothing seems to help, as they slowly fade off into more self reflection.

Our works should be natural. We should not follow by obligation. We should follow by desire. We should want to be righteous. We should seek Christ eagerly. If a person is obeying Christ by obligation or guilt, then they are motivated by the wrong reasons. They should be motivated by love. They should want to sacrifice everything and give it to Jesus because He loved us first. He gave His life for us.

Quote:
And you would see how a statement such as this is deadly:



People are under this odd impression that if the bible was taken away, we would all do whatever we wanted and become extremely sinful and wicked. Why is that? Do you not realize what you are saying? You are saying you live under law. If Christ is truly living inside of us and we have submitted to Him, whether we have the bible or not, we will be living in accord with His ways and teachings.

Our works should be a product of Christ in us. Our works should be a reflection of Christ in us. They should not be forced. For example....recently I felt as though I was playing too many video games. It was taking up a great deal of my time. My wife said to me, "Well then, why don't you designate certain hours of which you can play, and certain hours that you won't play." I said to her, "I will not do that. My desire should be for Christ. If I set up certain times to play, then I am only stopping not because I really want to, but because I am forcing myself. If I do this, then during those hours I will sit there and think constantly about the game. I will still be playing it in my heart, even though I am not playing it in action. Instead, I will pray and ask Christ to change my nature. I will wait for Him to change my desire. I want to stop playing because my desire is changed. I want my actions to be pure of heart. I want them to be true." I did this, and Christ has changed me. Lately, I my desire to play the game has diminished. I have been playing much less.

If I had sat down and said, "I will stop playing video games because the bible say this and that" then my motives would be all wrong. If my motives are pure, then my actions will be true.

If a person is truly following Christ and submitting to Him in ways, they will be acting perfectly in deed. They will also be at perfect peace. There will be no conflict within them. This is our ultimate goal, to abandon ourselves entirely to Christ so that our every action is of Him. When we reach this point, we do not think about what we do. We do not think about how to follow Christ. We just follow Him naturally. Our nature is the nature of Christ because Christ has complete control over us.

This cannot happen by obeying the bible or submitting to the bible. This can only happen by the power of the Holy Spirit inside of us.

And so, this message I am preaching is not deadly at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I am telling people to depend and rely on Christ entirely.

I believe that if a person is truly abandoned to Christ, they will not reject the bible. They will not cast the witness of the bible at all. Rather, they will see the truth in the bible. The closer we draw to Christ, the clearer our vision becomes. A person who has abandoned everything to Christ will read the bible and say, "I know this is true. I know it is true because I know Jesus Christ. He has confirmed this in me." As such, they will obey the teachings of the bible in truth, because of Christ inside.

However, a person who is without Christ, or fallen far from Him, will read the bible and only see what they want to see.

The biggest problem I have encountered in speaking with conservatives or liberals is this: a person will believe what they want to believe. It doesn't matter what the bible says, it doesn't matter what I say, it doesn't matter what reason and logic says, it doesn't matter what Jesus says. People will believe what they want to believe.

You can show a person the truth, but will they believe it? Will they be open and receptive to it?

This is true even among the true followers of Christ, those who have His Spirit. Even though we have His Spirit, we will still reject Him. God's greatest struggle in dealing with His children is spending hours, days, months, and years waiting for us to open our hearts and listen. He allows us to go about our way, doing what we think is best, until we stumble and fall calling out for help. He then comes in to save us and show us the truth.

If we would just fall on our knees in humility and submit unto Christ, then the Lord would have free reign to open our eyes to everything. However, we like to stick with what we most feel comfortable. We like the teachings and doctrines we have refined and studied for years.

On a last note, I am not saying the bible is untrustworthy. I am not saying we should discard the bible or it's teachings. What I am saying is that we need to keep the bible in proper perspective. Our desire should be first and foremost for Christ. We should seek first Christ. He should be our treasure. If we are doing this, then we will find the bible to be true and trustworthy. We will live in accord with the teachings of the bible naturally, as a result of the Spirit working in us. We should acknowledge that our Lord is our authority. We should acknowledge Jesus first in all things.

You are correct to say this is a matter of the heart. A person may be keeping Christ first. I know many who hold Christ above all things. However, they still say, "The bible is The Word of God." What they don't realize is that this statement is harmful to people who don't have Christ, or who have His Spirit but are far from Him. People who don't have Jesus will turn to the bible trying to find Him. People who are far from Him will turn to the bible in order to find Christ. We are constantly pointing people to the bible when we need to be teaching and instructing them ourselves.

If a person doesn't know Christ, then how can they properly read the bible? The bible needs to be discerned spiritually. If a person doesn't have the bible, then they will read it and either reject it, or see what they want to see (misinterpretation).

If a person is far from Christ, then how can they properly read the bible? They bible needs to be discerned spiritually. If a person is far from Christ and rejecting Him, then the Spirit will not be able to help them read the truth inside of it.

We first need to turn to Christ, the true Word of God, and abide in Him. If we abide in Christ, He will abide in us. With Christ in us, we will know the truth. We will read the bible, and we will know His voice. We will not be lead astray.

You are correct to say the bible points to Christ. However, we cannot see this truth unless we first have Christ in us. We need to first abandon ourselves to the Word of God, so that God's Word dwells in us. Then, with the guidance of the Spirit, we can understand and do all things.

However, people will not understand this truth if we say the bible is "The Word" making it equal with Christ. Jesus is God's Word. The bible is a testimony to Jesus.

I hope this helps,

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/2 9:57Profile
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 Re: to Beenblake

Beenblake said:

Quote:
"The bible is The Word of God." What they don't realize is that this statement is harmful to people who don't have Christ, or who have His Spirit but are far from Him.
People who don't have Jesus will turn to the bible trying to find Him. People who are far from Him will turn to the bible in order to find Christ We are constantly pointing people to the bible when we need to be teaching and instructing them ourselves.


So our words should have more weight than Scripture? This would seem to encourage trust in man.

Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Mat 4:4
Where are these words? Where is God’s mouth? I need to know because I need these words for my survival.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/8/2 22:11Profile
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 Re:

Hi Blake,

I still have not grasped exactly what you are saying, I am slow but I will try to listen intently. What do we do with the written word of God? Is it no the bible ruled over by the Holy Spirit and kept true in the heart of the believer which is the Promise of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This seems pretty conclusive the the written word of God is true and should not be added to our taken away from. Is it not the Holy Spirits responsibility to teach us from the Word of God. Where does it say the Bible is not the Word of God.

This seems to be up to the Holy Spirit to keep the word true to the very word Himself, that is Jesus Christ. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Where do we get information in our mind? Is it not by hearing or reading?

I know exactly what you are saying about the bible, with all its different translations and our different paraphrases of it, it is almost to the point that you don't even know where to turn or which one to read to get the written word of God which is for us and has been since the 10 commandments were written on tablets of stone, by the Hand of God.

By creating a rift between the bible and Christ it is and will cause dedicated and pointed trouble with new believers and even those that are supposed to be on the meet and not on milk.
I believe that the emphasis should be on trusting the Holy Spirit to keep us pure and true when it comes to the bible, that is the word of God, and trust God for His capacity to keep His Word pure in our hearts. Jesus said, "The gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church the Body of Christ." The bible has given me absolute truth and I am still learning the word of God by using it. The Holy Spirit has many times changed the written words that I read and makes them compatible with the Spirit of Christ that is in me. I expect ant trust Him to keep doing the work He is doing in me, and all who believe. Don't throw our the baby with the dishwater. The Bible is and always will be the way God seems to be using to bring forth salvation in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, until Jesus Himself is sitting on the Throne in the Holy City ruling and reigning as King over all, us reigning with Him over His Kingdom.

You have not made your claim of the bible is not the real word of God to be of effect in what you are meaning. Please continue with your supposition and maybe we can under stand better what God is doing through you. Very long post are not the answer. To the point of each different thought in the truth that you are wanting us to understand is easier to grasp, that is like the Line upon Line and Precept upon Precept being the way the Holy Spirit teaches us truth.

Isaiah 28:9-14 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

In Christ: Phillip



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Phillip

 2006/8/2 22:25Profile
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 Re:

I know exactly what you are saying about the bible, with all its different translations and our different paraphrases of it, it is almost to the point that you don't even know where to turn or which one to read to get the written word of God which is for us and has been since the 10 commandments were written on tablets of stone, by the Hand of God, also Paul: 1 John 2:12-14 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

We have to read writing to hear the Word of God.
If we did not have the Bible what would we do?
In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/8/3 3:45Profile
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 Re:

beenblake's

Quote:
You claim to have been born again, do you not? And in the process, you have recieved the Holy Spirit, have you not? Thus, in your daily activity and exercise, you are inspired by God, are you not? Does this make you infalliable? Are you perfect and without error?

God never promised me infallibility but He promised it to the apostles.

Quote:
The original text of the bible was written by men and women who were not Jesus Christ. They were not perfect and infallible. Explain to me how these men and women could possibly write perfectly what God has told them? Did God dictate these words to them, and then force them to write exactly as He wished?

The text of the Old Testament was endorsed by Jesus Christ in his constant reference to it. The Old Testament canon was regarded as complete by all Jews of the period including Christ. We have covered this several times on SI so I am reluctant to go over it all again. Christ's references, in Luke, show His attitude to what was then regarded as the written word of God “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”
(Luke 24:27 KJVS) This is not a reference to Moses and the prophets to the exclusion of the narrative parts or poetic parts of the OT. The later references shows us what is being referred to...“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,”
(Luke 24:44-45 KJVS) The first reference point to 'all the scriptures' and the second to Moses, the prophets and the psalms'. This is an idiomatic way of saying from Genesis to Malachi and is called, in Luke 24:45, the scriptures.

Having identified 'the scriptures' we can turn to Paul's word to Timothy.“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
(2Tim 3:15-16 KJVS) This includes the statement that 'all scripture' (and we know that means Genesis to Malachi, was God-breathed. It came, in the idiom, from the mouth of God. This is a truth expressed throughout the scripture in many ways. 'the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah' etc. The Holy Spirit spoke by the mouth of David. etc.

I suggest you watch my '[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2883385409335151265&hl=en]from Judas to da Vinci video[/url], especially the last chapter to understand what an extraordinary thing it was for Jews to 'add' the writings of Paul and others to 'the scripture'.

As regards the mechanics, I don't believe in dictation but I do believe that God so oversaw the whole operation that what came from the prophet's mouth is exactly what would have come from God's mouth if God had been that prophet. Consequently we have the identity of the prophet visible through the words that God gave inspired within him.

Quote:
Indeed, the bible was inpsired by God and the Holy Spirit recalled events during their writing. However, did the Holy Spirit rape them of their will? Or did these men and women submit willing unto their Lord writing as they were directed, but with error as they were with error?

This is intemperate and inappropriate language. Do doubt it was intended to shock. It does not shock me but it does sadden me. I can't even imagine the kind of mind that would associate the work of the Spirit with rape.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/8/14 9:55Profile
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 Re:

Dear Philologos,

Quote:
God never promised me infallibility but He promised it to the apostles.



I have not heard this before. How do you defend such a claim? Maybe I have missed something in scripture.

Quote:
This is intemperate and inappropriate language. Do doubt it was intended to shock. It does not shock me but it does sadden me. I can't even imagine the kind of mind that would associate the work of the Spirit with rape.



The use of the word "rape" was not used to shock. In fact, it is a rather appropriate word for the word connotes the use of violence to force someone to do something against his/her will. The question presented was to encourage thought. Would the Spirit do such a thing? Obviously not, as rape is not something the Spirit would do. And since God did not force His Word upon any of the prophets and apostles, we must consider the individual will of each in the equation.

The point of such was to establish this: the prophets and apostles would have had to submitted unto God 100% in order to present an infallible message. They would have been perfect and infallible.

I would argue that only Jesus Christ did such a thing. However, you have already stated a claim otherwise.

Quote:
This includes the statement that 'all scripture' (and we know that means Genesis to Malachi, was God-breathed.



And if I accept this claim, then what of the book of enoch as referrenced by the apostle James? What of the other books that were widely accepted by the Church until the protestant reformation? They were even a part of the King James version, but later rejected. Are not those God-breathed too?

My point is this....how am I to know? By what am I to discern what is truth and what is not?

Quote:
As regards the mechanics, I don't believe in dictation but I do believe that God so oversaw the whole operation that what came from the prophet's mouth is exactly what would have come from God's mouth if God had been that prophet.



I agree with you on this. I do believe the same. I do not believe the bible is precisely the word of God. However, within the bible is a message of God, inspired of God, given by God, and proclaimed by God. In this, it can be said the bible is the Word of God. However, to say the bible is inspired of God and the bible is the Word of God, is two very different statements, don't you think so?

In addition to this, if the bible is perfect in message, it is possible for it to be imperfect in word. The message is contained perfectly. It is the message of Christ. It is the good news. This message is not only told in the bible, but it is told in the life of each believer. Each of us are a walking testimony of Christ.

However, each of us are imperfect. Our words are imperfect. The bible was written in the words of human beings inspired by God. This, I believe is absolutely essential. It demonstrates and shows the relationship of God and man, which was perfected in Christ. It also demonstrates the power of God to use our weaknesses to bring about His glory.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of connotation. By saying "word" do we mean the literal word for word that proceeds from a person's mouth. Or are we speaking of the message they are trying to communicate. Of course, the message is preserved when the exact words are recorded.

I believe the bible was indeed inspired by God. However, the exact words of the bible came through men. The words, the literal words of the bible, are the words of men. The message of the bible is the message of God to all.

However, in our day and culture, when you say the bible is the "Word of God" it is taken to mean literally. I see this as a problem causing many people to be lead astray from Christ.

My wish is that all people are saved. And my concern is that people are walking rightly in the Lord.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/8/14 13:52Profile





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