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 Re: A need for more acute vision

Beenblake, I appreciate you sharing as it helps me know where you are coming from - which essentially is this:

Quote:
the Church of our day and age has turned the bible into something necessary. In fact, many Church members have become entirely dependent upon the bible. the bible has become the foundation of the Church.


I think we have come full circle in our discussion. The Bible has indeed been used improperly, even obsessively. It has been substituted for salvation, spirit filled living, and also personal obedience. It has been used to hide behind the most heinous of sins – the worst one being unbelief.

As I said earlier, what SEEMS to be going on (ie too much trust in the Bible) is not what’s actually going on in the heart. The Pharisees were never accused of putting too much trust in the Torah, but of MISSING the truth in it. Their trust was in their works, and so they combed the word (obsessively) for a list of works – dos and don’ts. They couldn’t see anything else – like mercy.

The Bible is pretty good at defining the sins of mankind; and we never read about the sin of over-reliance on the Word.

I feel that, while you correctly assess troubling signs and symptoms, your etiology is faulty. That leads to a solution that has dangerous side-effects. You swing too far from the plumb-line.

You need a better microscope.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/29 22:53Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Hi Diane,

You left this out of your last post. Lets be understanding of each other and make sure we use all of each others posts.

"The true cornerstone has been replaced."

First I would like to say the I am totally dedicated to the authority of the Word of God, because Jesus authenticated and confirmed the established the written word. Without it, that is the word of God, the scriptures, we would have no authority and message from God. There are those that would desecrate the Word of God, that is not my purpose, but to elevate the Word to the perfection it brings us to in Christ Jesus and beyond into Oneness in Christ and sons' to our Father. The Holy Scriptures are the true Character and Nature of God by Whom we are saved.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. comprehended 2638. katalambano
Search for G2638 in KJVSL
katalambanw katalambano kat-al-am-ban'-o

from 2596 and 2983; to take eagerly, i.e. seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively):--apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-)take.

IT NOT.

1. In this who is the Light? 2. Who is the darkness?
3. In Whom is life? 4. Who did not comprehend the light? 5. Most of all Who is the Word.


1. The light is Christ. 2. The darkness is man. 3. In Christ is life. 4. Man did not understand. 5. The Word is Christ.

If the Word is Christ, is the bible Christ, or is the Bible to bring us to Christ? Then we must go on into perfection in Christ because doctrine is to show us the elementary principles of salvation. So once we are saved by doctrine, we must go on into perfection, which is beyond the bible and doctrine and trying to stay in this in our salvation by the bible in itself we are putting Christ to shame. We cannot change these principle into perfection, we must go on into greater wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption or we are falling away from what Christ was intended to be, which is our life and perfection in all that we are, and by staying in these elementary principles we cannot be renewed again in them because we stay in them and won't go on into Christ.

Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is one of the hardest parts of The Word to understand and without the Holy Spirit and The Spirit of Christ being the perfection we are seeking not just the bible, this particular part of the scriptures the unlearned in the things of Christ beyond doctrine, use this to say we can loose our salvation. As a dead book being what we call the bible, and using it as the basis for all that we are will never lead us beyond the bible into the Living Word of God Himself, which is Christ in us and us in Christ. There is knowledge of the bible and there is the Knowledge of Christ in us the Living Word of God.
The bible is supposed to lead us into this Wisdom of Christ but the Church is stagnated in the bible knowledge and that keeps it on the milk. The counsel of church wants to take Father out of the bible and replace it with Father/mother and all else that brings discrimination to women. This is exactly what I am talking about, making the bible something much less that what it truly is, making it in itself, that is the Bible mans' crippled standard of the word of god.

In Christ; Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/30 2:32Profile
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 Re: tangents

Phillip said,

Quote:
Then we must go on into perfection in Christ ...


This is biblical. Yet, it’s not what we typically see in Christendom, is it? There seems to be quite a large schism between the ideal and reality. Something is missing, and I think Beenblake hits the nail on the head:
Quote:
None of these things are beneficial if I am unresponsive to Christ..



Many of the teachings you describe, Phillip, have been taught for years. Yet we don’t see the intended end product. We see a lot of denial - hiding behind cherished doctrines; we see easy believism – where sin is covered up with cheep grace. We see the Bible being used profusely (abused) , just as Beenblake observes.

I say, there has been a lot of ADDING to the Word. And those ADDITIONS have become the foundation. The dispensational segments are not explicitely defined in the Bible. So, I say, stay away from it. It was someone's imagination. Stick to the pure word, without creating volumes of complicated explanations that bog the mind and obscure the simple truth. Phillip says:
Quote:
"The true cornerstone has been replaced - " [by] mans' crippled standard of the word of god.



This gives justifiable reason for the Beenblakes of our world to be concerned about Biblical over-indulgence. And so Biblical Indulgencism gives rise to Beenblakism and vice-versa. (boy, my mind is getting wild) I guess I’m concerned about this typical bent of forming reactionary tangents – where people lean too far to one side in order to pull us back towards balanced truth. In time the over-correction gets more and more off-center, and you get polarized “truth”. You end up with a lot of fine-sounding doctrine made by ADDING and SUBTRACTING but you don’t see the power of godliness. And you don’t see the “perfecting of the saints” . Really, you don’t see a lot of evidence of true salvation.

This is where I see Christendom today.

Scripture is meant to function like a mirror for us – to help us see ourselves clearly. Yes, the Spirit brings truth to light, and empowers us towards godly living, but we can sure resist God’s Spirit by refusing to fully trust his Word and what it reaveals to us. We can be quite deluded about ourselves. Only God knows my own blinders, and to what extent I still do not know myself. I trust his Spirit to continue to open my eyes, and bring me into deeper repentance.

All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right. It is God's way of preparing us in every way, fully equipped for every good thing God wants us to do Tim 3:16 (NLT)

Blessings to all,
Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/30 7:12Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Diane,

You wrote:

"""Many of the teachings you describe, Phillip, have been taught for years. Yet we don’t see the intended end product. We see a lot of denial - hiding behind cherished doctrines; we see easy believism – where sin is covered up with cheep grace. We see the Bible being used profusely (abused) , just as Beenblake observes."""

Is this not the reason for reasoning behind Paul's statement in Heb 6. We have all these things but we now must go into perfection in Christ Jesus. Why would God birth a Perfect Seed in such a Lost and sinful container? It is the only means by which any could be saved. It is truly Christ in us that is our Hope of glory, nothing else. We have missed it and chosen the base thing of this world to make us who we are. We must seek first the Kingdom of God and then all these things will be added unto us. What things? The things that are heavenly, and the first thing we must seed is the Christ that has been born again in us for He is the Kingdom of God and He will and is ruling that Kingdom Now, in the saints that this mystery has been revealed to and now, in the saints on this earth in His earthly Kingdom when it comes into glory with the mystery saints ruling with Him over His kingdom on this earth.

There is a mystery that no one knew, because the Word says so. That mystery is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

It was hidden, if they had it and didn't know it then it must be revealed to them. From Paul's gospel it has been revealed by Christ to Paul and from Paul to us, revealed by the Holy Spirit, that we might know it now and have the mystery revealed in us now. Paul reaches the in Christ mystery, by mentioning it 146 times in he letters. How much more do we need, if we sit and say "in Christ" 146 times do you think we will get it. It takes the Holy Spirit to give this revelation and the truth of it, Ask for Bread, He won't give us a stone, but it is there, we are truly New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Pray that we understand this amazing miracle of God. We Have Jesus Christ In Us, and every Knee should bow, and all kneeling in tears that we have forsaken our first Love and not embraced Him that is ourselves.

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/30 20:01Profile
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 Re:

Phillip said,

Quote:
I would like to say the I am totally dedicated to the authority of the Word of God,


I sure would not like to make that claim about myself. Only God knows where my heart is still loyal to faulty beliefs.
Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/31 8:15Profile
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 Re:

Hi Diane,

I am only able to say that I am dedicated to the Word of God, because the Word of God is Christ, and it is Him that dedicated His Life to that end. You picked up on what I have been saying all along. It is the Christ in me that makes this possible. If it were up to me I would fail just like everyone up to the Cross failed, also all those since the Cross fail if they don't understand that it is the Christ in them that is only able to give the believer the capacity and ability to Make Christ, The Word, the center of the life of the Believer. Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is Christ in the believer that does it all. All He did on the Cross is finished. By His birth in us, it is now up to us beyond the Cross to finish the Good Work He has started in us.

We are the ones to serve the law of God. With the Law of God Himself being in us we can by the Mind of Christ serve the Law of God, Like Paul: "I myself serve"

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

With the Mind of Christ we can control the Flesh, since it has been quickened by the Holy Spirit to give the Mind of Christ the Power in the believer to do it.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Did we die with Christ? Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ" yet I live, it is no longer I who live but Christ liveth in me,

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: I am not calling you a fool, I was the fool until I understood I was quickened by the Spirit and able truly by the Incorruptable Seed of the Word of God Himself, Jesus Christ, and dedicate by His Power in my life to living in Christ by His Life that is in me.

We cannot be quickened unless we die, we must see ourselves dead on the Cross with Christ. That is the only way His resurrection becomes alive in our living the Word of God, Which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


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 2006/7/31 13:58Profile
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 Re:

Answer for Daine,

""I sure would not like to make that claim about myself. Only God knows where my heart is still loyal to faulty beliefs.
Diane""

You can make that claim about yourself, because you have an Advocate with The Father and He is birthed in you, He is now your life, Jesus Christ Himself born again in you.

If you do sin, the Advocate is there and God is Faithful and Justified in forgiving you and cleansing you from all unrighteousness, by the Righteousness of Christ The Father has made in you.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Why is God Faithful and Justified to forgive us?
This is the complete answer: Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/31 14:22Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
You can make that claim about yourself, because you have an Advocate with The Father and He is birthed in you, He is now your life, Jesus Christ Himself born again in you.


Sorry, Phillip, I refuse to make any ideal claims about myself. And I refuse to accept any doctrinal system that endorses pretence.

You desire truth in the inward parts. Ps. 51:6



Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/31 20:13Profile
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 Re:

You can make that claim about yourself, because you have an Advocate with The Father and He is birthed in you, He is now your life, Jesus Christ Himself born again in you.

This must be balanced with this kind of a heart.
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If you believe the scriptures and they say loud and clear that Christ is in you. That in itself says you are the express image of Christ. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

Then knowing we are in this world and we are as Christ is, know this we must not think it robbery being as Christ is, that we are equal with Him as the only Begotten Son of God, but by Him because it is God's intension we think of ourselves as son's of God. Galatians 4:6-7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. We cannot glory in ourselves being son's of God, but we can glory in Christ in us our Hope of Glory of Him making us son's. That is why Jesus Christ is the advocate with the Father for us.

I am not creating a doctrinal system. This is the Word of God. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Do you believe this scripture and this one also?

This one Paul says fulfills the Word of God.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the Word of God. What do you think it says?

In Christ: Phillip


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 2006/7/31 22:48Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The Bible is pretty good at defining the sins of mankind; and we never read about the sin of over-reliance on the Word.



Quite the contrary. The bible speaks in depth on idoltary.

I am not talking about a mere "over-reliance on the Word." I am talking about a replacement of Jesus with the bible. Just the sheer fact that you call the bible "the Word" is a replacement. Jesus is the Word. When you call the bible, "the Word", you are calling the bible, Jesus. You are saying "the bible" is equal to Jesus.

In your heart, you may not mean this. However, from out of your mouth comes this comparison. This message may keep another person from coming to Christ. A person, who needs Jesus, may turn to the bible thinking they will find what they need. Instead of finding Jesus, they will just learn about Him. In order to find Jesus, they must go to Him. They must submit to Him, not merely to His teachings.

Quote:
what SEEMS to be going on (ie too much trust in the Bible) is not what’s actually going on in the heart.



Let me make a clear distinction here. When I say the "Church," I am referring to the organization. I am referring to every person that is identified as a member here on earth. However, the Church is filled with tares and wheat. There is a body of believers, true believers that are in fact new creations in Christ, filled with God's Spirit. All those who are truly God's people, who indeed have the Spirit of God, are not committing idoltary. Their heart has been transformed to the likeness of Christ. Their heart is pure. For this I agree with you.

However, there are a great many people in the Church who think they are saved but are really not. Some of these people (whom I cannot identify) have made the bible an idol in their heart. These people are the ones I am most concerned as I do not wish anyone to enter Hell. Some of these are decieved by the lie that the bible is the Word of God.

The Church body, both true believers and false, has embraced the bible as "The Word of God." The bible is not "The Word of God." In addition, they have elevated it to the height of diety granting it authority over all things it touches. The bible has no authority apart from Christ.

While true Christians worship Christ in their heart, having a pure heart and spirit that has been transformed by Christ, they are still capable of sin. We are still capable of believing in lies, promoting lies, and teaching lies. The Church, as a body of wheat and tares, has gone wayward. We have accepted false teachings and adopted them as doctrine. This must change.

Quote:
I feel that, while you correctly assess troubling signs and symptoms, your etiology is faulty. That leads to a solution that has dangerous side-effects. You swing too far from the plumb-line.



Alas, my dear sister, this diagnosis is not of my own. This was given to me by the Lord. I once accepted, just as the populace, that the bible is The Word. However, the Lord changed me and weighed this heavy upon my heart.

The Church has many "troubling signs and symptoms" as you say. We can all observe this. We need our Lord desperately to come back. We always have.

I am in no position to tell anyone what "their" problem is or to diagnose the Church's troubles either. I see things that don't sit well with me, but who am I? I am not a Savior or a doctor or Lord. I can only do that which my Lord has commanded me. And this is what He has asked of me. This is where He has placed me.

For each of us, He has a place. We should each seek to be in that place He has for us. What better place to be than perfectly in the hands of our Lord, being shaped like clay, pushed and pulled into His awesome work!!!

As a last statement of humility, if I am not following Christ, I pray He will change my course.

I leave all things to Him.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/31 23:44Profile





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