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roadsign
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 Re: blind to the truth and the Person

Quote:
I pray that the Church may be revived of this blindness, and may once again see the truth.


If one is truly trusting the Bible, and seeing what it said, would they not find Christ - the ultimate truth. The entire Bible points to Christ and our need to surrender to a PERSON. You have to be big-time blind to miss this in the Bible. It’s not obscure.

I dare say that the Pharisees were NOT trusting the word. They couldn’t see Christ in it because they were blinded by unbelief, not because they were trusting the Torah too much. (although it looked like they were) They were too busy straining gnats. And that is, quite likely the real problem today with the Bible thumpers. They say the Bible is their ultimate guide, but really it is not. They trust in something other: self, works, etc.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/29 12:25Profile
beenblake
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 Re:

Dear Dianne,

Quote:
If one is truly trusting the Bible, and seeing what it said, would they not find Christ - the ultimate truth. The entire Bible points to Christ and our need to surrender to a PERSON. You have to be big-time blind to miss this in the Bible. It’s not obscure.



I wish this were true. However, a person will not find Christ by reading the bible. What they will find is information about Christ in the bible, and by reading it, they will know about Christ. It is the same if you were to read the biography of Ben Franklin. You would know about him, but could you say that you know Ben? You could call Ben your friend?

Alas, the bible may lead you to an understanding of Christ, however, if you want to know Jesus as Lord and Savior, you must meet Him. You must be saved. You must be born again. The bible cannot do this.

Not to mention, the bible is spiritually discerned. This means that if you are without Christ and do not have the Holy Spirit, you will not discern the bible correctly.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are strict followers of the bible and all it teaches. They submit and obey it to every letter. However, they do not understand a single word, for they do not have the Spirit. Because of this, they do not surrender to Christ. Instead, they surrender to their own interpretation of the bible.

Putting the bible in the hands of someone who does not have the Spirit of Christ is like giving someone an instruction manual written in a foreign language. They may pick up on bits and pieces, but until they learn the langauage, they will not understand.

A person can only come to an understanding of the bible by the Spirit of Christ. A person can only come to an intimate knowledge of Christ by being saved.

In addition, while the bible speak of Christ, Christ lives in each believer. A person will see Christ on earth in the heart of each true believer. This is essential. The good news is being spread through each of us. We are the carriers. We are the vessels God has chosen to use. Too often, we are neglecting our responsibilities by substituting our command to love one another with a bible. How sad it is that we should ever substitute love with a bible, but it is happening.

We should not replace Christ with the bible. The bible is important and significant, however, we should also keep it in proper view. It is a relfection of God, not God Himself. We must not mistake the reflection for God, or else we should commit idoltary.

In love,
Blake



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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/29 13:45Profile
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 Re: clarity needed here

Quote:
a person will not find Christ by reading the bible.

It is the same if you were to read the biography of Ben Franklin. You would know about him, but could you say that you know Ben? You could call Ben your friend?



I fear you are muddying the water. If you have the right book about Ben F you can indeed find him (if he was living). It would take you right to his house. Likewise, a good map helps you find the way. But the map itself is not the city – I think that’s what you are trying to say.

Yes, my Bible alone is just a bunch of black blobs on paper. (Sorry to all who bury a Bible in the foundation of their home, for protection from demons)

Yet one can indeed find Christ in and through the Bible (God’s map – brilliantly laid out). It's far from meaningless to the unregenerate. Just ask pagans what the golden rule means to them. It reflects the very character of God.

How do you get to now anyone? It’s usually by them talking to you (among other ways). The Bible TALKS the very words of our Lord. Would we get to know him better if he spoke the same thing audibly?


Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/29 14:34Profile
beenblake
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 Re:

Quote:
It may be a couple of weeks before I can get back to this discussion as I shall be away from home but if you would like to "listen" to my answer to this question you will find it in a little series of studies I did about 10 years ago called The Word of God.



Dear Philologos,

I took the time out today to listen to the first part in your series called “The Word of God” where you address the question ‘What is the Word of God?' Truly, it is an in depth study and I do appreciate your observations. In your offering you establish the point that the words to be “received” and that the listener should become “involved” in them. The following discourse is a testimony to that.

In the beginning of your presentation, you address the question, ‘what is a word?’. You provide several answers. You say a word is a “revealer of thoughts and desires”, an “expression of things inside,” and a “carrier.” Indeed, these do speak of what a ‘word’ is. However, these characteristics especially highlight that of the human ‘word’ without considering the full depth of God’s Word. The Word of God is much greater and it’s purpose is much higher. Communication and revelation are important aspects of this, however, the full purpose of God’s Word is made evident in what Christ is quoted as saying in John 4:34 (NKJ) “Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.’”

The Word of God is not merely an utterance, but “is living and powerful” as it says in Hebrews 4:12. When the Lord speaks, an event occurs. The Word produces action. The Word creates. The Word does. The Lord spoke the world into existence as it is recorded in Genesis. Whatever the Lord says, it is done. I do not dare think or say the Word of the Lord is a “force” but rather it is an “authority.” God is the Head of all things. He is supreme. As such, He has authority over all things. When the Lord speaks, His authority makes it happen.

As humans, our authority is limited. Truly, what do we have authority over? One of the few things we do have authority over is our flesh. When I want to lift my hand, I give the command and it is carried through my nerves to my hand. However, as you know, our authority over the flesh was corrupted by sin. Because of this, we have also become slaves to our flesh obeying the will of our flesh.

In your discussion, you also paralleled the “Word” and the “Will” as if they were one and the same. Let me challenge that thinking. The ‘will’ of a person is that which they desire to be done. The ‘word’ of a person is the expression of the ‘will.’ Lastly, ‘work’ would be the activity of the ‘word.’ I suppose we could also add ‘wisdom’ in that as well, stating that ‘wisdom’ is the discernment of the ‘will’. I believe ‘word’ and ‘work’ are united, for any ‘word’ that is not fulfilled or obeyed is disobedience or an act against the ‘will.’ Truly, the ‘word’ always seeks to do the ‘will.’ Of course, the difficulty comes in whose ‘will’ the word is performing.

In the case of humans, are we doing our will, the will of our flesh, the will of Satan, or the will of God? We were created to do the will of God, and unless we are doing the will of God, we are incomplete.

This leads me to a very bold statement you made in your discussion of which I would also like to challenge. You said that “We are the word of God.”

On the basis of what I stated above, that we were created to do the will of God, this would seem to be logical. And at a first glance, it seems rightly so. However, if that were the case, then what reason would there be for Jesus to be our King? Would not we already be King without Him?

In your discussion, you gave a beautiful discourse on Jesus being the Word of God. I appreciated and agreed with everything you said. Jesus is the expressed image of God. Jesus reveals God to us. However, in addition to this, you seem to have forgotten a most important statement from John, “The Word was God.” Jesus, The Word of God, is completely and fully God.

As such, by saying we are the Word of God, you are stating that we are God. This very statement is exactly what Satan tempted Eve with in the garden. This has been the temptation and the demise of humanity ever since. We are tempted to think we are the Word of God, and that our special purpose is to be God in the physical world, or to be the expression of God.

In Colossians 1:15(NKJ), Paul said, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Jesus Christ is the image of God. He was the firstborn over all creation. I do think the word “over” is significant here as it establishes the Lordship of Christ. He is over all creation. There is none greater than He. In Genesis 1:27(NKJ) it says, “So God created man in His own image.” Notice the difference between this and the above. Jesus is the image of God. Humanity was created “in” God’s image. We were patterned after Christ. We are the likeness of the Word, but not the Word Himself.

As such, we were created to reflect Word of God much like the moon reflects the sun. We were not created to be the Word of God. This idea of “reflection” is spoke of by Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:18, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.” We are to be transformed into the same image of Jesus Christ. We are not to be Jesus, but to be “in” His image.

At first, this may not seem to make logical sense. As you established in your discussion, it only seems logical that we should be revelation of God’s will and the character of God. You quoted 2 Corinthians 3:3 where Paul said, “You are an epistle of Christ” and Colossians 1:25 where Paul says “to fulfill the Word of God.” Indeed, we have been created as such that the Word of God may dwell in us, and by doing so, the light of Christ may be seen in us. However, this does not mean we are the ones who fulfill the Will of God by our own power. In other scriptures, Paul establishes that true obedience is not accomplished by our own power, but rather by the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, working in us. As such, we are not the ones who “fulfills” or completes the Word, rather we are a vessel by which God can work in.

This is our place. We are to abandon everything to Jesus Christ so that He may work in us. The power of His Spirit should have complete control and dominion in us so that we may reflect perfectly the light of Christ, God’s Word. This fulfillment comes not in our own power, but by the power of Christ living in us.

We were never created to be a whole and complete creature in and apart from God. In Genesis 2:18, after God had created Adam, it says, “It is not good that man should be alone.” Was Adam alone? Did he not have God? Adam was indeed alone because he had not yet been united as one with Christ. Adam did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of him. God was with Him as a friend externally, however, internally, Adam did not have union with God. As such, without the Word indwelling, Adam was incomplete. However, God knew this and had planned for this. In the garden were two trees, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. Adam and Eve, however, did not eat from the tree of life whereby they would have been united as one with the Word. Instead, they ate from the tree of knowledge whereby they separated from God becoming an enemy with Him.

Our purpose was not to be God or to be God’s Word. Our purpose is best described in Revelation 21:9 where it says, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." We are the bride of Christ. We were created to share all things with Christ. We were not created to be the Word of God, but to submit unto the Word of God, so that we may reflect the glory of God.

The best way to this is to say we are vessels. We are empty vessels without Christ. We are full vessels with Christ. We bear witness to the Word of God. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:3, we are “an epistle of Christ.” We are a living testimony of the Word of God. God has done a might and wonderful work inside of us through His Word Jesus Christ. We are a living testimony of this work.

As such, this also describes the bible. Humanity, witnesses of the Word, have written the bible. The bible is our testimony of the Word. The bible is extremely significant as it is a recording of past testimonies. These testimonies will shine forever in the Heavens like stars. They will endure forever. The bible doesn’t start or stop with 69 books. The bible is each believer. Those who testify to Christ will live forever to be a living testimony of the work of God.

In your discussion, you state the bible is “The Word of God.” Your entire basis for supporting such is to quote John 10:35 where a parallel is made. However, you do not recognize the parallel in full, neither do you support it with further scripture. The scripture says, “(NKJ)If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),” If you notice, Jesus is paralleling scripture with “to whom the word of God came.” This speaks of an event where the Word had come to a person. What was recorded was scripture, and as such, this is a testimony. Jesus did not parallel scripture to
The Word of God, or else He would not have included “to whom the word of God came”, rather He would have only said, “If He called them gods (and Scripture cannot be broken).” There would have been no need to establish that the Word of God came, if indeed what the person said was the Word of God.

In your presentation, you give a wonderful description of The Word of God. You describe this in and through Jesus. You give an awesome testimony to Christ. However, you then move the discourse directly into saying that the bible is The Word of God without explaining how this leap is made. I wish to challenge you. How do you make this leap? How is both the bible and Jesus the Word? Are they the one and the same? And in that regard, which bible is the Christ? Which one is the exact Word of God, complete and entirely in perfection?

Lastly, a question to ponder. Is the bible a revelation of God’s Nature (as you said about Christ), or is the bible a testimony to the revelation of God’s nature? Does the bible reveal or does it inform? (In case you don’t understand what I am getting at, it is simply this: there is an immense difference between having information about Christ and believing in Christ. To know Christ is more than just having knowledge about Him, it is being born again.)

In love and in Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/29 16:56Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
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Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
I fear you are muddying the water. If you have the right book about Ben F you can indeed find him (if he was living). It would take you right to his house. Likewise, a good map helps you find the way. But the map itself is not the city – I think that’s what you are trying to say.

Yes, my Bible alone is just a bunch of black blobs on paper. (Sorry to all who bury a Bible in the foundation of their home, for protection from demons)

Yet one can indeed find Christ in and through the Bible (God’s map – brilliantly laid out). It's far from meaningless to the unregenerate. Just ask pagans what the golden rule means to them. It reflects the very character of God.

How do you get to now anyone? It’s usually by them talking to you (among other ways). The Bible TALKS the very words of our Lord. Would we get to know him better if he spoke the same thing audibly?



The bible may lead a person to Christ. However, the bible will not save a person. Just the same, I may lead a person to Christ, but does that mean I saved them?

I used specifically the example of Ben Franklin because He is dead. There is no way you could say to me, "I know Ben Franklin." You do not know him. You know "of" him.

There are people who read the bible and say, "I know Jesus." Well, how do you know Jesus? "Because I have read the bible." Then you don't know Jesus. Have you been born again? Do you have the Spirit of Christ living in you?

How do you get to know a person? You interact with them. As such, a direct exchange is made without anything in between.

For example, there are many men who know my wife. There is only one man, me, who knows my wife intimately.

As a side note: the greek word for know is "Ginosko" which is the word used in Matt 7:23. In Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary, it says this about this word, "Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman." For a person to truly know Christ, they need to have an intimate and bonding experience with Him. They need to be united with Him as one.

The bible is a recording of the Word of God. It is not a direct exchange. It is intermediary. The Lord spoke, a man or woman recorded it, and thus we have scripture. We read scripture, but this is not a direct exchange. In fact, this is not an intimate experience at all.

When the Holy Spirit is living inside of you, there is a direct exchange. You have been united as one with Christ. There is nothing standing in the way of that relationship. You are connected to God. You know Jesus. As such, your entire life is shared with God, and it becomes an intimate experience with God.

You asked if we know him better if He spoke audibly? No. The only way to know God is through the indwelling of the Spirit.

Jesus was quoted as saying, "No one comes to the Father except through me." We cannot have any sort of relationship with God unless we have been born again. We do not know Jesus, unless we have been united as one with His Spirit.

The bible may increase our knowledge (as the word is used in our society, to increase the amount of our information) about God. However, it will not bring us closer to God. To become closer to Christ, we must abandon ourselves to Him. We must allow the Spirit to control, and allow Christ to have complete authority over us. We must give ourselves to Him.

Hope this helps,

Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/29 17:23Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
However, it will not bring us closer to God.


Do you really believe this?
What DOES the Bible do for you?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/29 17:58Profile
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 Re: Dispensations

Hi Diane,

There is the Christ in you revelation that Paul received. No one has received it before Paul.
The way God dealt with Israel if completely different to the way God is dealing with the Church the Body of Christ, is how we are new creatures in Christ Jesus, a new race of people, Christ Ones, Christians whom we were first call this in Antioch.

The last 50 years are just the adding together of the missing of the way God is dealing with the Church. The missing is that our salvation is not up to us. It is up to God, we are the ones the do it because of God not because of ourselves. That is why this phrase, "Whether the believer obeys or disobeys these duties has nothing to do with his salvation, but disobedience will cost him rewards and crowns at the Judgment Seat ..." In other words we are not under the Law anymore, we don't do to be what we are. That is the dispensation of Law which we no longer live under. We are saved by who we are because we believe what God says about His Son. Who are we? We are new creatures in Christ Jesus. This is now the Who, because of Christ in us. Now the Who we are becomes the "is not because we obey or disobey", The Who we are is because of the Grace of God and what we believe, to be who we are. So obeying or disobeying does not matter, because now who we are by believing makes us doers of Christ because of Who we are, not by what we do. The what we do is now because of Christ that has been born again in us. So to our salvation obeying and disobeying is not the object, the object is Christ. Christ in us is the obeying one. We love the law now and it cannot kill us anymore. The perfection of the Law is in Christ. Christ is in us, so what does that make us pertaining to the Law. How are we to be judged now that Paul's gospel has been revealed, by that gospel, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Romans 2:14-16 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

We do the things of the Law because Christ is in our heart, the soul of a man, because Christ has been born again in the spirit of a man.

Study the rest of ROM 2, from 16 on. We see that it is not the Law that saves and cannot save. We see the Christ in us is the Law perfected and we now do it because we have Christ and Love Him because of His Love that is in us. We cannot do the Law without the perfection of the Law Himself now being our nature, as is the same, we cannot Love the Father without the Love of the Father in Christ Jesus be in us also. We are now the living Law and Love of God through Christ Jesus that is now our nature by birth, being born again in Christ.

This is what Peter is saying about Paul when he says "some things are hard to understand"
2 Peter 3:15-18 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

What are we to grow in? Grace. Law and Grace cannot mix unless the Law Himself is in the receiver of the Grace that made the Law Perfect.
Then Grace and Law are perfected in Him and made perfect righteousness by Him that is made righteousness by God in us. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/29 18:15Profile
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 Re:

Hi Blake,

The Holy Spirit has confirmed everything you have said about the Word. I see exactly what you are speaking of and I know the living Word Himself and He is my Life. The Holy Spirit is the express Teacher of This Word Himself. Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and it takes the Holy Spirit to teach us the Life of Christ that has been born again in us. The bible is the written word of God, it is not a living Person, but the capacity of the written word to show us this living Christ that is born again in us is how God has chosen to reveal Himself, His Son and the Holy Spirit to us.

I have only one question: It sounds like you make the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit One Person in the God Head. I know that God is One and in the effect of dealing with man Three individual manifestations of The God Head. Do you believe the The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same manifestation? If the answer is yes, then who died on the Cross? If the answer is no, then the Holy Spirit is the Sealer of the Spirit of Christ that is birthed in us and the answered prayer of Jesus Christ and The Father answering the prayer by Pentecost to reveal the birthing of the Spirit of Christ in the believer.

I really do rejoice in your knowing The Christ in you the Hope of Glory and because of the Christ in me, I see the Christ in you by your word.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/7/29 21:46Profile
beenblake
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 Re:

Dear Diane,

Quote:
What DOES the Bible do for you?



The bible brings me closer to a mental understanding of God and His ways. The bible is good for instruction in righteousness, for an understanding of our(all of humanity) relationship to God, for teaching concerning God and His nature, and for directing me or encouraging me toward Christ. However, all of these matters a purely informational on the basis of taking in and learning information. None of these things are beneficial if I am unresponsive to Christ.

The Spirit of Christ that dwells inside of me is what draws me closer to God. In truth, it is what unites me with God. In reading the bible, I may open my heart and mind to God and thus drawing nearer to God. However, this was not due to reading the bible, but rather, the opening of my heart to God. There are times when I read the bible that my heart is closed, and instead of drawing near to God, I use it toward my selfish benefit. I don't want to do this, but I fight against evil principalities of this world.

There are other people who use the bible to push their own ideas on other people, to try and manipulate God to do what they want, and as an authority to control others. I do not think any of these people draw closer to God by reading the bible. Jesus warned of these false teachers and false prophets.

In 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul said, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness;" A key word in this scripture that everyone seems to glance over is the word "profitable." Paul said scripture is profitable. It is not necessary. Profit is extra. It is the icing on the cake. It is what you have when you have paid all your bills, and have taken care of everything that is necessary.

Scripture is not necessary for treaching, for reproof, for correction, or for training in righteousness. Scripture is profitable. It adds to this. Christ is necessary. Scripture is not.

However, the Church of our day and age has turned the bible into something necessary. In fact, many Church members have become entirely dependent upon the bible. The bible has become the foundation of the Church. The true cornerstone has been replaced.

The only way to draw closer to God is to abandon oneself entirely to Christ. You may know(as information) the teachings of Christ by reading the bible. However, the teachings of Christ will not be produced in you unless you have the Spirit of Christ in you. The teachings of Christ will not dwell in you and be known as true in you, unless Christ is in you. Reading the bible will not aid this process and will not make it happen. You cannot know God in Spirit and truth by reading the bible. Only Christ can do this. Only the indwelling of His Spirit can draw you nearer to God.

I not only believe this, I have given my life to it.

I pray that whoever reads this, God may grant them understanding as I cannot.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/29 21:49Profile
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 Re:

Dear Phillip,

Indeed, I agree. It is a wonderful gift that we may all share our Lord who unites us as one.

Your brother,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/7/29 22:06Profile





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