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 Re:

David, just some food for thought:


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me.

I am Crucified with Christ, ....no longer I but Christ in Me.......

Love in Christ
Katy ;-)

 2008/1/7 9:11
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Katy, If you want to say Timothy's, Paul's. and Peters gifts were independent of the word, or Holy Spirit, then we would need scripture to back that up?
Personally I would just assume It to be all connected since there is no theme that I can think of where God moved but was disconnected from what he did?
I assume [correct me if I am wrong] ,since you dont make it clear, you and Jeanette are coming from the angle that no more miracles or prophets etc. exists?
With Elisha it was not abstract it was clear.
Follow this guy across 2 continents if necessary to get that mantle.
I believe this. I resist that concept of "just seek the giver" and the gift will abstractly just kinda evolve.
Timothy received his gift through the laying on of hands.
Paul said he would be behind in no gift.
I will seek the giver and I will seek the gift . This is scriptural.
What did David say about "paying full price for that threshing floor?"


David



 2008/1/7 10:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Quote:
Yes. For example, as you no doubt know, the word "love" translates at least three different Greek words.



Good Morning Jeannette,

Yes, you said it better than my clumsy way.

So it is good to check. This is true for so many words.

One example is the word "wait". Wait on the Lord.

I heard a pastor use this from a verse..to wait upon the Lord, and he said it meant like a butler or waiter. However, that was not the meaning ....but it really meant to trust in the Lord and wait for Him.

Sometimes we think these are harmless mistakes, but the Greatest of all Faith and Trust is to wait for Him, not run ahead and do something on our own.

Thanks Jeannette for clarifying.

Love in Christ
Katy


Thanks katy

I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to "get one over on you". Just that I wasn't sure what you meant!

People misunderstand me too :roll:

Have been doing a study on the words for prophets, prophecy etc, but not come to any definite conclusions yet. A preliminary lookat the various Greek words shows thgat they all come from the same root, but the meaning is much wider than foretelling the future (although it includes that function).

There are at least 3 words in Hebrew...

Watch this space! :-)

Jeannette

 2008/1/7 11:52









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:

I assume [correct me if I am wrong] ,since you dont make it clear, you and Jeanette are coming from the angle that no more miracles or prophets etc. exists?

Not sure about Katy, but that definitely isn't my position!

Have to get to work (a late one today)

Blessings

jeannette

 2008/1/7 11:59









 Re: Words for "prophet etc in NT

From Strongs. Some key points bolded. It seems that there is the whole gamut of different prophetic functions here.

Strong was apparently a cessationist, because he speaks of prophecy in the Apostolic age as if it no longer happens. Which I find very strange and without Scriptural foundation. (Here very much agreeing with David)

4394 [b]προφητεία [propheteia[/b] /prof•ay•ti•ah/] n f. From 4396 (“prophecy”); TDNT 6:781; TDNTA 952; GK 4735; 19 occurrences; AV translates as “prophecy” 16 times, and “prophesying” three times. 1 prophecy. 1A [b]a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events.[/b] 1B Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets. 1B1 of the prediction of events relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due. 1B2 [b]of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets. 1B3 the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ.[/b]

4395 [b]προφητεύω [propheteuo[/b] /prof•ate•yoo•o/] v. From 4396; TDNT 6:781; TDNTA 952; GK 4736; 28 occurrences; AV translates as “prophesy” 28 times. 1 to prophesy, to be a prophet, [b]speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict. 1A to prophesy. 1B with the idea of foretelling future events[/b] pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God. 1C [b]to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation[/b]. 1D [b]to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels[/b]. 1D1 [b]under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others[/b]. 1E to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office.

4396 [b]προφήτης [prophetes[/b] /prof•ay•tace/] n m. From a compound of 4253 and 5346; TDNT 6:781; TDNTA 952; GK 4737; 149 occurrences; AV translates as “prophet” 149 times. 1 in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things. 2 [b]one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events[/b], and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation. 2A the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah. 2B of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah. 2C of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah. 2D the Messiah. 2E of [b]men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God’s authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men[/b]. 2F of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians. 2F1 they are associated with the apostles. 2F2 they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. [b](Acts 11:27)[/b]. 2F3 in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were [b]moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers[/b]. 3 a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine inspiration). 3A of Epimenides (Tit. 1:12).

4397 [b]προφητικός [prophetikos[/b] /prof•ay•tik•os/] adj. From 4396; TDNT 6:781; TDNTA 952; GK 4738; Two occurrences; AV translates as “of the prophets” once, and “of prophecy” once. 1 proceeding from a prophet. 2 prophetic.

4398 [b]προφη̂τις[/b] [prophetis /prof•ay•tis/] n f. From 4396; TDNT 6:781; TDNTA 952; GK 4739; Two occurrences; AV translates as “prophetess” twice. 1 a prophetess 2a woman [b]to whom future events or things hidden from others are at times revealed[/b], either by inspiration or by dreams and visions. 3 a female who declares or interprets oracles.


Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/1/7 18:38









 Re: Words for Prophet etc, OT

5029 [b]נְבִיא [nâbiy’ /neb•ee/][/b] n m. Corresponding to 5030; TWOT 2843a; GK 10455; Four occurrences; AV translates as “prophet” four times. 1 prophet.
5030 נָבִיא[b] [nabiy’ /naw•bee/][/b] n m. From 5012; TWOT 1277a; GK 5566; 316 occurrences; AV translates as “prophet” 312 times, “prophecy” once, “them that prophesy” once, “prophet + 376” once, and “variant” once. 1 [b]spokesman, speaker[/b], prophet. 1A prophet. 1B false prophet. 1C heathen prophet.
5031 [b]נְבִיאָה [nâbiy’ah /neb•ee•yaw/][/b] n f. From 5030; TWOT 1277c; GK 5567; Six occurrences; AV translates as “prophetess” six times. 1 prophetess. 1A ancient type [b]endowed with gift of song[/b] (Miriam). 1B later type consulted for a word (Huldah). 1C false prophetess (Noadiah). 1D wife of Isaiah the prophet.

5012 נָבָא [b][naba’ /naw•baw/][/b] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1277; GK 5547; 115 occurrences; AV translates as “prophesy” 111 times, “prophesying” twice, and “prophet” twice. 1 to prophesy. 1A (Niphal). 1A1 to prophesy. 1A1A under influence of divine spirit. 1A1B of false prophets. 1B (Hithpael). 1B1 to prophesy. 1B1A under influence of divine spirit. 1B1B of false prophets.
5013 [b]נְבָא [nâba’ /neb•aw/][/b] v (CLBL). Corresponding to 5012; TWOT 2843a; GK 10451; AV translates as “prophesied” once. 2 (Ithpael) to prophesy.

[b]Also translated “SEER” (eg Isaiah 30:10)[/b]

7200 [b]רָאָה, רָאֶה, רְאוּת [ra’ah /raw•aw/][/b] v. A primitive root; TWOT 2095; GK 8011 and 8013 and 8021; 1313 occurrences; AV translates as “see” 879 times, “look” 104 times, “behold” 83 times, “shew” 68 times, “appear” 66 times, “consider” 22 times, “seer” 12 times, “spy” six times, “respect” five times, “perceive” five times, “provide” four times, “regard” four times, “enjoy” four times, “lo” three times, “foreseeth” twice, “heed” twice, and translated miscellaneously 74 times. 1 [b]to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider[/b]. 1A (Qal). 1A1 to see. 1A2 to see, perceive. 1A3 to see, have vision. 1A4 to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out. 1A5 [b]to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish[/b]. 1A6 to look at, gaze at. 1B (Niphal). 1B1 to appear, present oneself. 1B2 to be seen. 1B3 to be visible. 1C (Pual) to be seen. 1D (Hiphil). 1D1 to cause to see, show. 1D2 to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at. 1E (Hophal). 1E1 to be caused to see, be shown. 1E2 to be exhibited to. 1F (Hithpael) to look at each other, face.

7201 רָאָה [b][ra’ah /raw•aw/][/b] n f. From 7200; TWOT 394a; GK 8012; AV translates as “glede” once. 1 bird of prey. 1A perhaps kite or hawk.

7202 [b]רָאָה [ra’eh /raw•eh/][/b] adj. From 7200; TWOT 2095a; GK 8011; AV translates as “see” once. 1 (Qal) seeing.
7203 [b]רֹאֶה, רֹאֶה [ro’eh /ro•eh/][/b] n m. Act part of 7200; TWOT 2095b, 2095c; GK 8014 and 8015; AV translates as [b]“vision” once. 1 seer, prophet. 2 (prophetic) vision[/b].

Translated “SEER”
2372 [b]חָזָה [chazah /khaw•zaw/][/b] v. A primitive root; TWOT 633; GK 2600; 51 occurrences; AV translates as “see” 38 times, “behold” seven times, “look” three times, “prophesy” twice, and “provide” once. 1 [b]to see, perceive, look, behold, prophesy, provide[/b]. 1A (Qal). 1A1 to see, behold. 1A2 [b]to see as a seer in the ecstatic state[/b]. 1A3 to see, perceive. 1A3A [b]with the intelligence[/b]. 1A3B [b]to see (by experience)[/b]. 1A3C to provide.
2373 [b]חָזֶה [chazeh /khaw•zeh/][/b] n m. From 2372; TWOT 634a; GK 2601; 13 occurrences; AV translates as “breast” 13 times. 1 breast (of animals), breast of an animal sacrifice.
2374 [b]חֹזֶה, חֹזֶה [chozeh /kho•zeh/][/b] n m. Active participle of 2372; TWOT 633b; GK 2602 and 2603; 22 occurrences; AV translates as “seer” 16 times, “see” three times, “agreement” once, “prophets” once, and “stargazers” once. 1 seer. 1A seer. 1B vision.

2375 חֲזׄו [Chazow /khaz•o/] n pr m. From 2372; GK 2605; AV translates as “Hazo” once. 1 son of Nahor by his wife Milcah. Additional Information: Hazo = “vision”.
2376 חֱזוּ [chezev /khay•zev/] n m. From 2370; TWOT 2725a; GK 10256; 12 occurrences; AV translates as “vision” 11 times, and “look” once. 1 vision, appearance. 1A vision. 1B appearance.
2377 חָזׄון [chazown /khaw•zone/] n m. From 2372; TWOT 633a; GK 2606; 35 occurrences; AV translates as “vision” 35 times. 1 vision. 1A vision (in ecstatic state). 1B vision (in night). 1C [b]vision, oracle, prophecy (divine communication)[/b]. 1D vision (as title of book of prophecy).
2378 חֲזׄות [chazowth /khaw•zooth/] n f. From 2372; TWOT 633c; GK 2608; AV translates as “vision” once. 1 visions.
2380 חָזוּת [chazuwth /khaw•zooth/] n f. From 2372; TWOT 633d; GK 2607; Five occurrences; AV translates as [b]“vision” twice, “notable” twice, and “agreement” once. 1 vision, conspicuousness.[/b] 1A vision, oracle of a prophet. 1A1 agreement. 1B conspicuousness in appearance.
2381 חֲזִיאֵל [Chaziy’el /khaz•ee•ale/] n pr m. From 2372 and 410; GK 2609; AV translates as “Haziel” once. 1 a Levite of the family of Shimei of the Gershonites in the time of David or Solomon. Additional Information: Haziel = “vision of God”.
2382 חֲזָיָה [Chazayah /khaz•aw•yaw/] n pr m. From 2372 and 3050; GK 2610; AV translates as “Hazaiah” once. 1 an exile and descendant of Shelah of the tribe of Judah who returned in the time of Nehemiah. Additional Information: Hazaiah = “God has seen”.
2383 חֶזְיׄון [Chezyown /khez•yone/] n pr m. From 2372; GK 2611; AV translates as “Hezion” once. 1 king of Syria, father of Tabrimon and grandfather of Ben-hadad; probably identical with ‘Rezon’ the contemporary of Solomon. Additional Information: Hezion = “vision”.
2384 חִזָּיׄון[b] [chizzayown /khiz•zaw•yone/][/b] n m. From 2372; TWOT 633e; GK 2612; Nine occurrences; AV translates as “vision” nine times. [b]1 vision. 1A vision (in the ecstatic state). 1A1 valley of vision (perhaps fig. of Jerusalem or Hinnom). 1B vision (in the night). 1C vision, oracle, prophecy (in divine communication)[/b].


[b]For example, in Micah 2:6[/b]
5197 [b]נָטַף [nataph /naw•taf/][/b] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1355; GK 5752; 18 occurrences; AV translates as “drop” 12 times, “prophesy” four times, “prophet” once, and “down” once. 1[b] to drop, drip, distil, prophesy, preach, discourse.[/b] 1A (Qal) to drop, drip. 1B (Hiphil). 1B1 to drip. 1B2 to drop (prophecy).

A lot to look at, but I found it helpful. It especially shows that prophecy or to prophesy and the office of a prophet is wider that we would think, and indeed seems to cover most kind of inspired utterance, or even song!

For example, in 1Chronicles 25:

[color=990000]1Ch 25:1 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals[/color]

The word here is "naba".

In Him

Jeannette

 2008/1/7 19:02









 Re:

Quote:
Katy, If you want to say Timothy's, Paul's. and Peters gifts were independent of the word, or Holy Spirit, then we would need scripture to back that up?



David,

Lets begin with the Gospel according to the Mystery. Was that independent from the word? I say NO!. It was kept SECRET, but not new or independent from the Word.

When one has the Gift of Prophecy, it must take in the WHOLE of scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

I would suggest if you believe the Holy Spirit works independently from the Father and Son, who has revealed the *Mind of Christ* to His Church,, then you are suggesting the Trinity as three separate Deities doing their own thing. In other words, the Right Hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing?

I cannot separate the Trinity in this way.

Here is an example:

On another thread we are discussing the Temple, among other things. One point was many people during WWII were deceived by self proclaiming Prophets, that Hitler was the anti-christ. Also, I stated on the Matthew 24 thread months ago, that because of this false prophecy, many believed the Rapture would soon take place. We can see neither of these came to pass.

NOW if those who were stating these Prophecies knew the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, knowing many things needed to come to pass before any of this could take place, no such prophecies would have been made.

We see, from that time until now, many of those things, have now come to pass (Israel back in the land, etc).

This is my point concerning prophecy. The word of God is complete. There are no NEW prophecies that annul those already established.

Prophecy in the NT is to re-iterate what is all ready stated in scripture. Those who know the scriptures, having the mind of Christ, can discern, or should be able to, a true prophet from a false prophet.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2008/1/7 19:26









 Re: Prophetic Credentials II


Here's a New Testament prophecy.

John 16
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Hi Katy,

I noticed that no-one has commented on this which you wrote on p22. I think you can guess I believe the scripture has a much wider application than the interpretation you give it, so I just wanted to say, particularly for all those who may never know whether they know a Jew or not, to qualify for salvation under your definition of the judgement of individuals, (see in bold quoted below) that I have [u][b]never[/b][/u] heard these verses (Matthew 25) narrowed down in this way, either when I've heard the chapter preached live, or, in any discussion here on SI.

I don't wish to enter discussion about it - not even to ask you to consider the possibility you have imbibed a false doctrine, perhaps - but simply to say this is [u]not[/u] how many respected brethern either read or preach Matt 25.

Quote:
Jesus didn't come to save Nations, but Individual souls...one soul at at a time.

Yes.

Quote:
[b]The Judgment of Nations is based on how that Nation treated Israel. And the Judgment of the sheep and goats are how individuals treated Jews.[/b]

No

Quote:
However the Church (A heavenly organism) is not what this judgment is about( Matthew 25), as the Church at this time will be reigning with Christ at His return.

I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Quote:
Because of the lack of understanding, we have a Hodge podgy of self proclaimed prophets thinking we are now in the tribulation period...we are not.

I included the last paragraph of my quotation from your much longer post, because you asked me in another thread, slightly rhetorically (although I know you would listen if I tried to explain), what 'tribulation' I am experiencing. I do not wish to answer this at all, thanks.

I say all this gently, and in a measured tone.


 2008/1/8 10:25









 Re:

Dorcas/Linn,

You don't wish to answer, but I will reply.

The Church....the Body of Christ enters the Kingdom through much tribulation, and has from the beginning. Read all of what Paul teaches about our tribulation. For one, Romans 5 says WE GLORY in tribulation, because tribulation works patience, and patience HOPE, and and HOPE makes us not afraid, because the Love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is our BLESSED HOPE!

However this is not what Matthew 24&25 are reflecting, and what many here who want to put the Church in fear. We do not have the spirit of Fear, but of Love, peace and a sound mind.

Perfect Love casts out fear,
We have the Peace of God, and Peace with God
And our minds have been renewed by the Holy Spirit.

Our life is Hidden with God in Christ Jesus.

As My signature scripture states, we seek what is above, not below.

Love in Christ
Katy

;-)

PS: added, so then when Christ appears to separate the sheep from the goats, we will also appear with Him. He will be glorified at that time and He will be Glorified in His Saints..Thessalonians, and Revelation 17 state at His return the faithful and Chosen will be WITH HIM. We, His Body, His Church are the Faithful and Chosen!!

No where does Paul teach the Church that after you are saved, sanctified, washed in the Blood, baptized into the Body of Christ, and that Jesus will present the Church to Himself, that we then have to undergo some sort of sorting out based upon our WORKS of how we treated people.



 2008/1/8 10:35









 Re:



Linn, you said NO ONE on SI believes this way?

Warren Wiersbe does, and is also sponsored on SI.



As Warren Wiersbe says, “Next to the 13th chapter, no part of Matthew has suffered more than the chapters 24-25! Almost every major cult has used Mt. 14:1-41, along with Daniel 9:20-27, to “prove” that Christ has already returned! Even well meaning evangelicals confuse the issue by applying this section to the church in this age.” (Warren W. Wiersbe, Expository Outlines on the New Testament, Calvary Book Room, Covington, KY, 1982, p61)




Is the Church in the Olivet Discourse?

Matthew 24:3-25:46

by Cooper P Abrams III

It is a common mistake in interpreting Matthew 24-25 to conclude that this passage is addressing events within this present church age. For example Matthew 24:40-41 seems to be a reference to the rapture. ( 1 Thess. 4:18:13-18, 1 Cor. 15:51-58). Further in assuming that it is describing the end of the church age, Matthew 25:31-46 is seen as teaching a single end time judgment with the saved or sheep on one side and the lost or goats on the other. The result of this view is to conclude that there is no Pre-Tribulation rapture of believers in this dispensation. The following is presented as a response to explain hermeneutically that this is an incorrect view and Matthew 24-25 supports Pre-Millennialism and Pre-Tribulation rapture view of eschatology.

The context of the Olivet Discourse is established by Matthew 24:3. The disciples asked the Lord the question, ". . .what shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world." The word, "coming" is parousia, and basically means, "presence" or "arrival." (see 1 Cor. 16:17, 2 Cor. 7:7) The word translated "world" is the word aion, and means "age or a period of time." The question they asked was, "What shall be the sign when will you return will be the end of the age?" Next we need to determine what "age" were they asking about? Many falsely conclude that the age Jesus is talking about is the church age, however, the context and statements negate that being the case. The age He speaks of here in the coming Seven Year Tribulation and the promised Kingdom Age or what is referred to as the Millennium (1000 year reign of Christ). The parallel accounts in Mark 13:1f and Luke 21:5f tells us that Jesus’ discourse of Matthew 24-25 occurred just after Jesus had left the temple for the last time and had predicted its destruction. He said that not one stone of this magnificent structure would be left upon another. (See Luke 21:5) The disciples perceived that Jesus was referring to events at the end of their present age and the coming of the promised Kingdom.

The disciples as well as the Jews were looking for the coming of the promised Kingdom and were asking when Christ would return and set up His Kingdom. The strong condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees of Matthew 23, clearly set the stage for the disciples to be very concerned about these events. Jesus said that judgment would come upon this generation (Matt. 23:36-39). In Matthew 24:2, Jesus said that the beautiful Jewish temple would be completely destroyed. This was shocking news to the disciples, greatly alarming to them. Jesus then left the temple grounds proceeding east, probably through the Eastern Gate and across the Kidron Valley to the Mount of Olives which was in sight of the temple mound. As He saw on the Mount of Olives, the disciple came to Him privately as Matthew 24:3 records and ask Him when these things would occur and what would be the signs of the end of the age. Therefore contextually that is the question that Jesus answered in the Olivet Discourse.

Many times before, Jesus had explained to the disciples that He would killed and that He would be leaving them. For example in Matthew 16:21-28, Jesus told His disciples He would be killed and be raised from the dead on the third day. (See Matt. 14:1f) These statements about His death and leaving all preceded Matthew 24 had set the stage for the uneasiness of disciples concerning future events. They were looking for Him as the Messiah to set up the Kingdom, but He had not explained to them how this would be done. Thus, contextually the Olivet Discourse is related to the Jews and Jesus is addressing the coming promised Kingdom which would begin with the Daniel’s 70th Week (the Seven Year Tribulation) and His Second Coming. The present church age is not in view here.

Note that in Matthew 24:14, the Gospel that is being referred to is the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:5-7, records that John the Baptist, and Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God is at hand." Throughout Jesus’ ministry this was the Gospel He preached. The Good News presented to the Jews proclaimed was that He was the Messiah. The Jews clearly understood that the coming of the Messiah would bring about the promised Kingdom Age of the nation of Israel that the Old Testament prophets had foretold and the Jews had been looking for centuries. Therefore Gospel of the Kingdom Jesus preached was of the coming Kingdom and is not the Gospel of the Church Age which presents salvation based on the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Compare Matthew 24:14, with 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

Although Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 clearly predicts the Messiah suffering and dying for their sins it still remained a mystery to them. They saw the Messiah as coming victoriously destroying the enemies of Israel and could not seem to relate a suffering Messiah with a victorious one.

Further, Matthew 24:21-22, specifically states that Jesus was referring is to the events of "Great Tribulation" and leaves no room for doubt as to the period Christ is describing.

Carefully note the sequence of events:

THE GREAT TRIBULATION BEGINS.

Matthew 24

24:5 - Many will come and claim to be Christ.

24:6-7 - Wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom famines, pestilences, earthquakes in many places.

24:8 - These things are the beginning of sorrows (birth pains).

24:9 - Persecution unto death of believers

24:10 - Open apostasy, betrayal, and hatred among those professing to be believers.

24:11 - Many false prophets deceive many.

24:12 - Iniquity shall abound, and the love of many will grow cold.

24:13 - Promise of physical salvation to those would endure and survive to the end.

24:14 - The "Gospel of the Kingdom" shall be preached unto all nations and then the end comes.

24:15 - Temple will be defiled by the Anti-christ (Dan. 9:27) (This is the tribulation temple)

24:16-20 - Those in Judaea flee to the mountains. (How can one relate this to the church?)

24:21 - Then shall be the “great tribulation.” The magnitude and scope of these events have no parallel in history, past or present. This is a reference to the bowl or vial judgments of Revelation 15-18 which occur at the end of the Seven Year Tribulation.

24:22 - It is so bad, if God did not shorten the days, no one would be left.

24:23-28 - People know all this is God's doing and related to the Second Coming, thus false christs arise and misled the people.

24:29 - Immediately after the "tribulation," the sun and moon go dark, and star fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens will be shaken (Note this is a Universal event not just a shower of meteors or asteroids hitting the earth. The whole Universe is shaken.)



THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

24:30 - The sign of Christ coming appears in the skies. What this sign is, is not revealed,

but everyone on earth will see it and know it means Christ is returning. This is in counter distinction to the teaching of the imminent return of Christ presented in the Epistles to the churches. Believers in this dispensation are not told to look for signs but to look for Christ’s imminent return. Paul states that signs are related to the Jews, not the Gentiles. “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom” (1 Cor. 1:22)

24:31 - Christ sends his angels with a great sound of a trumpet to gather His "elect" from

"the four corners of the wind and one end of heaven to the other." Mark uses the term "from the uttermost part of the earth to the utter most part of heaven." Thus Christ gathers the saved in all of heaven and all over the earth at the moment of His Second Coming. The believers of this present church age as the "bride of Christ" will have been raptured before the Seven Year Tribulation and will accompany Christ Jesus, along with the saints throughout the ages past, at His coming. On the earth, those believers still alive, will also be gathered to Jerusalem to meet the Savior.

This is not the rapture because these details of these two events are different. Here In Matthew 24:31, Christ sends angels to gather the saints to be present at His arrival. In 1 Thess. 4:16-17, states that Christ Himself will descend with a shout and the dead in Christ shall arise first and those a live will be change and "caught up" (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Cor. 15:51-52, states that those caught up will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye." The "gathering" of the saints by angels clearly is different than the instantaneous "catching up" which describes the rapture.

24:32-35 - Parable of the fig tree. Jesus uses the process by which a fig tree produces fruit as a illustration of relating the sign He has just mentioned to His Second Coming. He is saying as you see these events happening look for the Second Coming and the age to end. He is now answering the disciples question as to when the Kingdom would be set up. Up to this point He is telling them what the signs would be. There is no correlation between 1 Thess. 4:16, and Matthew 24:31. In 1 Thess. 4:16, there is the voice of "one" angel, identified as the archangel. In Matthew 24:31, Christ sends forth, a plurality of angels, meaning more than one. Contextually, the "elect" of Matthew 24:22, are the same "elect" of Matthew 24:31, which are on the earth during the Tribulation.

24:36-39 - Comparison to the days of Noah. Only God knows the hour of His coming. "BUT" Jesus says, it will like it was in time before the Flood. Noah preached for one hundred and twenty years and worked to complete the ark. He too did not know when the Flood would come. Jesus is predicting a long interval between His leaving and His promised return. Using Noah as a example of perseverance and faith He is telling them not give up hope during the long interval.

24:40-41 - The rapture of the lost. This is not the Rapture of the church. The context places

this event at the Second Coming after the Tribulation. The ones that are taken, are taken in judgment and parallels those taken in judgment in the Flood. In the Flood those that were taken were lost and those left were saved. At the Second Coming Christ will remove the unsaved from the earth in judgment. (see Ezek. 20:38, Mt. 8:12, 13:41-42,49-50, 25:41, 2 Thess. 1:7-9). The saints alive at the Second Coming will remain and enter the kingdom in their natural bodies (Isa. 4:3, Ezek. 20:40-42, Zech. 13:8-9, Matt. 13:43, 24:34). This cannot be the Rapture, because you would have all the saints removed from the earth, thus no one to populate the Millennial Kingdom in their natural un-glorified bodies. Further, at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom there would only be the lost left on earth. This clearly cannot be referring to the rapture of believers of this present church age, as the whole of the Olivet Discourse is dealing with the 70th Week of Daniel and relates to Israel.

24:42-44 - Parable of the householder. Warning to the Jews to watch and be ready.

24:45-51 - Parable of the wise servant. Note that in these parables there is a warning to watch for the signs and get ready. Again it needs to be stated that believers in the church age, who are the Bride of Christ, are told to look for His imminent return. We today are note told to look for signs, but to be ready to be caught up at any second.

THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB.

25:1-13 - Parable of the Ten Virgins. Again Jesus is using a parable to warn the nation of Israel to be ready for the coming of their Messiah and the subsequent promised Kingdom. Verse specifically states that the coming Kingdom is “likened” to the ten virgins. The picture is the wedding of the Bride Groom who clearly is the Lord Jesus Christ. The believers of this dispensation, the church age, are called the bride of Christ. The virgins of this parable are invited guests of the Bride Groom to the wedding. The virgins clearly are not the bride, but guests who are told to be ready. Clearly is a serious mistake to conclude that those that are to be looking for the coming of the Bride Groom is church age believers. They are the bride and they are already prepared and waiting. Certainly the bride would not be prepared for her wedding day. However, here the guests are warned to be ready. The point is this. In Israel during the Tribulation there will be Jews who see the signs of the coming Messiah and will make themselves ready for Him. Others referred to a foolish virgins were not prepared and they missed the wedding. In other words the wise virgins were ready and entered into the Kingdom, and the foolish virgins not being prepared or watching did not.

25:14-30 - Parable of the Talents. Once again Jesus using the term “For the kingdom of heaven is as” sets the context of His remarks. He in this parable presents a contrast between who looked for the Master’s return and wisely used their talents and those who did not. They all knew the Master would return and require an accounting of them. Two servants faithful used what they were given, but the third was slothful and indifferent and he was condemned. The unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness which is a reference to hell. Taken the context of the parable, Jesus is saying to Israel that they should be looking for the Master’s return and use the talents they have. Verse 29 makes the point that Israel had the knowledge of the Messiah and the coming Kingdom. They had been given much and therefore they would be judged accordingly.



THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

25:31 - Jesus then says the Kingdom would begin when Christ comes with all His angels.

25:32-46 - The Judgment of the people of all nations. (The sheep and goat judgment)

This is a judgment of the individual Gentiles who are alive having survived the Great Tribulation. It is referred to as the "Judgment of Nations" as verse 32 specifically states. However, it means individuals of the nations of the earth, not a whole nation or a nation as a whole. No nation is made up of all saved people, thus the judgment is of individuals of the nations of earth. This judgment is referred to in Joel 3:1-3:

"For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink."

Note the this judgment of the Gentiles takes places at the same time that God restores the Nation of Israel to their land. It takes place before the Millennium, because those that are accepted are taken "into" the kingdom. (Matt. 25:34) This judgment takes place on earth as the Lord divides the saved from the lost living inhabitants of this world. The saved are those on earth who believed and by faith were saved during the Seven Year Tribulation and survived unto the Second Coming.

There is no resurrection involved here and no mention of a judgment of the dead. God is judging living people on earth. Joel 3:2, says it will take place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat." Some believe this is the Valley of Berachah (2 Chron. 20:26) where Jehoshaphat defeated the Moabites and Ammorties, which gave the valley a new name. Others refer to the place as being the Valley of Kidron outside Jerusalem. Others refer to Zecharaih 14:4, which says the Lord will return to the Mount of Olives and a great valley will be opened. Jehoshaphat means "Jehovah judges." Thus the valley of Jehosphaphat means this new valley where Christ will judge the nations. No one can be dogmatic as to the place of this judgment. Your writer holds to the latter view, which seems to be more likely.

The basis of this judgment is based on how they treated "my brethren" (Matt. 25:40) which refers to saved Jews they had contact with during the Tribulaton. God sends, at the beginning of the Tribulation, 144,000 Jewish evangelists who preach all over the world. (Rev. 7:1-8, 14:1-5) It is to how the Gentiles received these Jewish preachers of the Gospel that determines their salvation. This is not a judgment in the sense that those saved worked for their salvation by doing the good deed of helping these Jewish evangelists. Salvation is never received because of one's good works. (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 4:5) The works of compassion shown to the 144,000 is evidence that these Gentiles who are to be part of the Kingdom, believed their message that Jesus was the Messiah (Savior) and accepted the message of Christ these men preached. They were saved the same way all men are saved, by believing and receiving Jesus Christ (Messiah) as their Savior.

The result of these who believed are that they enter into the kingdom alive in their natural bodies. They are not resurrected, but remain in their human bodies unchanged. They remain alive and they with the saved Jews who remain alive at the end of the Seven Years populate the world in the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. This tells who the earthly inhabitants of the Kingdom will be. This fulfills the prophecy of Daniel 7:14, Isa. 55:5, and Micah 4:2 which state a large group of Gentiles will have a part in the kingdom. Note also that there will be many Jews alive and these will be the ones who actually inherit the earth in the Millennium kingdom. The Jews who have died will be resurrected and in their spiritual bodies they too will take part in the kingdom.

The "goats" are pictured on the left hand of the Savior, and Matthew 25:41 states they are condemned "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." They had the same opportunity as the "sheep" who received the Gospel and repented of their sins. They heard the message of the 144, 000 and other saints saved during this period, but rejected it and thus sealed their eternal doom. Matthew 24:41-42 explains that these who reject the Messiah during the Tribulation will be caught up, removed from the earth and judged. Those left on earth are saved people, the elect, who will enter the Kingdom Age. The place of their torment is called the, "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." This plainly is a reference to "Gehenna" the "Lake of Fire" (Revelations 20:14) and not to "Hades" the present abode of the unsaved dead. Satan is never said to be in Hades, the present abode of the lost who are awaiting the final judgment or his angels. Revelations 20:10, says that Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, before the judgments of the unsaved lost at the Great White Throne judgment (Revelations 20:11-15). Thus this verse is saying the lost of the Great Tribulation are judged and condemned immediately to the eternal Lake of Fire and are not a part of the Great White Throne judgment that happens after the Millennium.

Conclusion:

As Warren Wiersbe says, “Next to the 13th chapter, no part of Matthew has suffered more than the chapters 24-25! Almost every major cult has used Mt. 14:1-41, along with Daniel 9:20-27, to “prove” that Christ has already returned! Even well meaning evangelicals confuse the issue by applying this section to the church in this age.” (Warren W. Wiersbe, Expository Outlines on the New Testament, Calvary Book Room, Covington, KY, 1982, p61)

Every detail of Matthew 24-25 is related to the Jews and the nation of Israel. There is nothing in these two chapters which relates to the present church age or believers of this dispensation. It is therefore a serious mistaken to interpret the Olivet Discourse as referring to end of the church age and there is not found here any support for a Amillennialism. If understood properly these passages support the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulational rapture of believers in this present Church age and of the Pre-Millennial return of the Lord Jesus Christ.


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 2008/1/8 13:17





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