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broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: It's all about HIM.

Agreed Sister Annie,

I was working on the following post while some of you were posting:

Murrcolr wrote: if you read what I said earlier you will see someone who operates in the prophetic can see something in there gifting and then can then jump right into the flesh (get angry) to try and deal with it and completly make a mess of it.

Please read about Moses in Numbers 20

Psalm1 said: But the poor prophet is somehow not afforded this same early growth patience.

Go figure!!

--------------------------------------------------

Brothers there are 227 times the word “prophet” is mentioned in the KJV of the Bible. I humbly suggest you get out a concordance and do some extensive research on the word from THE WORD instead of taking words out of the context of the whole counsel of God on the subject. “Operating in the prophetic” in reference to the incident in Numbers 20 and speaking of “in their gifting” is I fear built on a whole lot of writing that has cropped up in the past few decades that ignores several centuries of scholarship on the subject, and ignores the whole use of the word in scripture.

I remember reading a “teaching course” a few years ago that apparently has gotten a very wide circulation that described the “prophetic personality”. But just because there has been a whole lot of teaching with a bunch of pop psychology involved in the so-called “prophetic calling” does not mean at all that it is scriptural. There is no scripture that gives any calling of God “slack” for lack of humility or for egotism, or immaturity, or lack of study of the whole counsel of God, or for zeal without knowledge (spiritual knowledge), or a whole host of other so-called “prophetic characteristics”. Abraham was called a prophet (Genesis 20:7) and from there the personalities, the backgrounds, the varieties of occupations were just as varied as the personalities and backgrounds and occupations of those who are called of
God to preach all through the centuries from the time of Christ. By the way the first time the word “preach” is used is an interesting context also. Look it up in Nehemiah 6:7. Look also at the references in Isaiah 61 and in Jonah to ‘preaching’.

The incident in Numbers 20 had nothing to do with prophecy in any sense in which we can make some kind of claims about prophecy. If there is any prophecy in the incident it had to do with GOD’s word to Moses, and not Moses speaking for God to the people. He did not prophesy to them in this chapter, he gave them water. And God honored him as His prophet, his servant, even though he had to suffer the consequences of his disobedience in this incident of smiting the rock instead of speaking to it.

We all are given time to grow in the Lord. But look at what that growth is supposed to do. Peter admonished:
1 Peter 2:1 - 3 (KJV) 1Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

And also with an especial view of the coming days, Peter made this “prophetic” utterance:
2 Peter 3:14 - 18 (KJV) 14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

In the scripture that has been quoted so frequently in these posts regarding the office of prophet, listen to the context and the purpose that Paul sets out:
Ephesians 4:1 - 3 (KJV) 1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace…

He then speaks of one body, one faith… and then says:
Ephesians 4:7 (KJV) 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

YLT says:
Ephesians 4:7 (YLT) 7and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,

Ephesians 4:7 (NASB) 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
The emphasis as you can see is upon the grace of God in Christ, and Christ’s gift NOT our gift.

The problem arising from the beginning of all these declarations at the beginning of this thread and all the so-called “prophesies” and “prophets” and “prophetic giftings” is that the em-PHA-sis is on the wrong sy-LA-ble. It is not our gifts, but THE gift… the gift of Christ… the gift given by the GRACE of the ONE GOD, of this ONE FAITH, and the END or the GOAL of that one faith. And the rest of the context is the kind of growth that God affords all of us, and the reason of that growth and the reason of that gift.
Ephesians 4:11 - 16 (KJV) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


Clint







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Clint Thornton

 2008/1/4 17:56Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

chris, Yes they blew it really bad. that is the thing about setting dates.
When I saw the date setting I was almost sure they were either adding something or they were out in left field.
One thing about the prophetic mantle is "you gotta know when to stop"
You can see something in the spirit and if you are "green" in the prophetic , your imagination can add to the message or vision.
Because of the dating this thing got built up like the second comming.
Which added to the greatness of the flop.Which ascribed a question of credability not only to christianity but God himself.
They brought shame to Gods kingdom.

David

 2008/1/4 17:56Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I pm'ed ironman about 6 mo ago and told him of a similar vision I'd had about two cities.



Quote:
Bill Clinton was the president in my vision



"Now a thing was [i]secretly[/i] brought to me...in thoughts from the [i]visions[/i] of the night..." (Eliphaz testifying in Job 4:12-13)

"And it was so, after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz, My wrath is kindled against thee...[i]for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right[/i]..." (Job 42:8)


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/4 18:16Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: by our words...

Ironman wrote 1/6/2007:God spared not Israel and He will certainly not spare us because thos covenant is the final one.after this there is no salvation. Remember that these letters were written not to the world but to the Church! where is is written:

The Lord shall judge his people.

the word is not talking about the world, it's talking about us! do we think that the evil we do goes unnoticed or that there is no recompense from God? this is a mockery of the justice of God, if we are not judged then why should the world be judged? We who are called by His name ought to know better and do better than we are surely. have we not Holy SPirit? Has God not furnished all we need to avoid sin?

in 2 Peter 4 17 the word says:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

and in the Revelation before anything jumps off, before any seal is broken turning loose the judgments of God the Church is clearly the initial recipient of the judgment of God. that means judgment on THIS side of heaven brethren? let us not delude ourselves nor be deceived, God is not in the business of letting transgressions go without consequence. indeed we are forgiven if we repent, but there is always recompense/consequence for sin forgiven or not.”
On a separate post he said:

no they don't miss. a prophet of God doesn't miss ever if he is speaking what God has in fact spoken to him to tell the people. however is the prophet says something out of himself which God hasn't said for him to say then he'll miss. now i take it pat has been on point sometimes right? on those times he must have been saying what God has him say, when he missed he was speaking out of self.

Crsschk on 1/10/07 (edited to correct date)

I don't think so. When he got it right he may have just been lucky and accidental or ... making commentary. This is by and large newspaper theology, not any different than what those who watch the stock market do, gathering up information and making an educated guess. But prophecy? Forget it. That one can go backwards and start extrapolating out the 'hit's from the 'misses' ... This is all rather absurd.

I am longing to hear the prophet open and shut his mouth at the same time and then the thing comes to pass.

Until then, all this dissecting, explaining and defending is just pure speculation and conjecture.
It's not the Lord.
Ironman: is there really such a thing as luck or a situation in which God doesn't preside over? Perhaps it may not have been Pat's intent to necessarily say some of what he has said in the past as prophecy, perhaps he should not have. i never said he was a prophet either nor am i saying that pat is a prophet. once again it seems the focus is on predicting the future but that is a small part of what a prophet is.

Edited to separate Ironman's quotes from CRSSCHK

Ironman: bro Mike, if you know Jeremiah you will know that he worked in the palace. Daniel also worked in the palace of the king of babylon. these men were not ignorant of what was going on in the land of Israel or in some of the nations around Israel at all. the knew what was going on. however they saw these things in the context of what God was doing and expressed it as such in an effort to get Israel to repent. JOhn the revelator was aware of what the roman empire was doing and what was going on in the churches he was told to write to but he saw it in the context of God's judgment first on His Church, then the world and then His final return.


why were they allowed? could it be that the same satanic spirit which was on babylon and spurred them to attack and destroy Israel? that was judgment from God you know... i have no doubt that those men were satanically inspired, Islam is a religion of the devil, that is a superficial observation but there is more to it than just that. however what did that event have to do with God and how does it fit into what God is doing? is God trying to communicate something? this is the thing we ought to ask when we see things happen:

how does this fit into God's plan for us all?


This is the thing right here. the world is wicked, no doubt, it is inherently wicked, however those of us who have been saved are partly to blame for the continuing wickedness because we have not wholly lived as we ought. our hypocrisies condemn us and give the world occasion to blaspheme God and this is displeasing to God and so even us His Church are ripe for the judgement also which comes before that of the world. 1/0/07
_________________________________________________
Amazing, truly amazing how much damage can be done by trying to be, rather than letting God be.


Matthew 12:33 - 37 (KJV) 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Matthew 12:33 - 37 (YLT) 33‘Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad, for from the fruit is the tree known. 34‘Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things—being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak. 35The good man out of the good treasure of the heart doth put forth the good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure doth put forth evil things. 36‘And I say to you, that every idle word that men may speak, they shall give for it a reckoning in a day of judgment; 37for from thy words thou shalt be declared righteous, and from thy words thou shalt be declared unrighteous.’



Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/1/4 18:22Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Why is it you never hear of any of the Puritans speaking of their secret visions and dramatic revelations, men who were of the absolute highest integrity in God; men like Leonard Ravenhill, T. Austin Sparks, Spurgeon, Finney, Poonen, Keith Daniel, John Wesley, Moody, Whitefield, Payson, Winslow, Sangster, etc? Does God only give apocalypic visions and fatalistic prognostications to third-rate, carnal, useless believers?

Booth wrote of a vision, but his vision was evangelistic and allegorical. There is a huge difference between such and the almost Lovecraftian visions that today's self-acclaimed prophets ostensibly purport. Job was the most righteous man of his age and he put his hand over his mouth as God's anger burned at Eliphaz the "privileged" visionary.



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Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/4 18:35Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: why is it?

Agreed Brother,

Perhaps it is because they studied the Word of God and knew that that Word has all we need to know of the present, past and future if we will but put our hearts into it and into knowing HIM.

Not to say that God does not speak with revelations to His servants, but revelations FROM the Word, not apart from it.

And speaking of prophetic... when my family and I left the Revival Conference, the children said, speaking of Brother Keith Daniel's message..."man it was like you were hearing one of the Old Testament prophets standing in front of you"...
Why? Because he spoke the Word of God as it is in truth as the LIVING Word.

That is PROPHETIC.

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/1/4 18:46Profile









 Re:

Jeannette,

If Jesus said Himself only the Father Knows for sure the time of His return, then date speculation of anything is questionable....and especially off the mark completely in this area.

I think we can see from the news areas of Prophecy coming to pass, however, those things were all ready foretold in scripture. Anyone can take a jab at dooms day prophecy, but does that make THEM a prophet? NO!

God sets up kingdoms and tears them down according to HIS purposes, and these purposes are working together to fulfill what has all ready been written in scripture,

Jesus said, WHEN you see these things come to pass....you know what time it is. He didn't say...when you HEAR someone Prophecy of these things.....bla, bla, bla.

Many problems with the new baby Christian or even an old one who hasn't grown in the grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ, is their taking out of context OT scripture that applied to or applies to Israel alone...not correctly dividing the word of Truth.

A Prophet in the NT, is one who builds up the Church...the Body of Christ...to or Heavenly Calling...not earthly situations.

These who keep your eyes on earthly things are actually enemies of the Cross..

Nostradamus (sp) predicted many things...but certainly was no prophet. Don't you think the devil also knows about things?

Since America is not specifically mentioned in scripture, we will assume it is a gentile NATION, just like any other Gentile Nation.

What does God say will happen to Gentile Nations?

For those who assume that America replaced Israel, that we are a Theocracy as Israel was, and apply God's warning to us in the same way is wrong.

Just as Nineveh (a gentile Nation was warned...and they repented, and any gentile nation who does repent, will be judged with the Nations, at the Judgment of Nations...Matthew 25, but that is not to be confused with judging individual Christians.

Jesus didn't come to save Nations, but Individual souls...one soul at at a time.

To make America (because they proclaimed themselves God's New Chosen People) ready for God's wrath because they have not repented is not found in scripture.

The Judgment of Nations is based on how that Nation treated Israel. And the Judgment of the sheep and goats are how individuals treated Jews.

However the Church (A heavenly organism) is not what this judgment is about( Matthew 25), as the Church at this time will be reigning with Christ at His return.

Because of the lack of understanding, we have a Hodge podgy of self proclaimed prophets thinking we are now in the tribulation period...we are not.

Therefore, ****during this age of Grace****, don't expect to see God's wrath on America, or anywhere else.

However, you have seen over history a nation losing God's favor for their dealings with Jews. See Spanish History for one.

I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you......that stands until the very end, regardless of where Israel is with the Lord at this time.

When or if America turns its back on Israel, THEN you will see that umbrella taken away.

But, when or if, is still in God's Hands and His timing for His purpose.

Keep your eyes on the Lord...looking UP...not down and around.

You have a Heavenly Calling, not an earthly one.

A Prophet in the NT is one who will have you keep your eyes looking up, reminding you your life in IN CHRIST.

Jesus Christ is made to each and every one of us, Wisdom and Knowledge, and we are Complete In Him.

James says, if you have a question ASK GOD, who is without variance or shadow of turning....and God will answer you, but if you waver on what He says, and say...oh gee, let me see what my favorite self proclaimed prophet says.....then forget it...He considers you a double minded man, unstable in all your ways.

Faith comes by hearing, and Hearing the Word of God...and the JUST shall live by Faith, in the substance of things Hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.....

Jesus Christ is our Blessed Hope! Not this world, or anything in it!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Please re-visit:

*******Philippians 3******

 2008/1/4 19:03









 Re:

Quote:
IRONMAN'S LAST POST ON THIS THREAD 12/31/07 - Page 17 -

if i've been the one in error...

Greetings in Jesus' Name dear saints by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i bow my knees and thank God for the Mercy and Grace shown us here. if none of this which i have believed over these last few yrs comes to pass i take some comfort in that i won't be continuing in that error into '08. i'm not sure what i would do but there would certainly be much agony. i'd be sure to apologize before God and before you all dear brethren and seek forgiveness from you and God knows thereafter. there wouldn't be anything left to say (i don't think anyway) except to admit gross error and seek forgiveness. bro Chris said and hoped that i'd not go into depression and i don't think i'm prone to that. however to think that i don't know God's Voice and/or how to listen to Him and obey may leave me depressed and a bit more guarded.i'd post little if anything i suppose, fearing stumbling anyone.if this burden has been self imposed, i don't know how i'd deal with anything in the future resembling it.it would be a hard thing to come to grips with if it's proven i've been foolish all this time and caused God and you my brethren undue grief from the moderators on down, to my brethren at the church i attend...Romans 8:28 does say He works all things for the good but this would be a tough lesson...all the same i'd rather that than continue in error.

it's as if as bro R said we're between the red sea and pharaoh's army, can't go forward unless the sea is parted, can't go back unless the army is vanquished. if i've run from egypt prematurely or should have stayed there, either i'm going to drown in the sea or get hacked to pieces, perhaps i may be dragged back in bonds.

let God be proven True.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
EDIT
p.s. i hope that whichever way this goes we can hold each part of the 5-fold ministry to God's Standard trying and proving whoever calls him/herself apostle, prophet, preacher, teacher, evangelist lest phonies abound.



Brother Ironman, I haven't posted 'to' you on this thread yet - just generalities on my feelings on the subject of prophets.

You and I spoke on previous threads since 2006 about this subject and to nutshell what I said then, I still feel --- a person should not have to announce in public what their "calling or gifts" are.
I still stand by that.

With that said and nothing more on this topic - I'm asking you to come back to SI -- not necessarily on this thread and just be one of us again.

I think you've been whipped enough. Much more than enough.

As from myself Personally, my feeling is that you have been "mentored" by someone else - maybe someone older than you and I don't hold you 100% accountable for 'false leadings or promptings' by this someone else. But I do hold this 'someone else' 100% accountable. Amen!!

I pray we can drop this now and you develop your own walk with JESUS alone - without the coaching or 'leading' or words or any other prompts from any mentor(s). Just you and your wife -- get alone with Jesus and seek Him for Himself alone.

Let's begin this new year, seeing each other as all Equals. Let's forget "callings and gifts" and look for The Giver and to be transformed into HIS image and then the works that He did, we shall do also with no attention on ourselves --- all of us.

[b]"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered and He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the Saints according to the will of God and [i]we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose, for .......[/i] whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the Image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." [/b]

I love you brother Ironman and do not feel you should leave this Forum.

We're all in need of Humbling. Me first and then down the pike - and if we all humble ourselves and seek HIM for Himself Only - we will have what it takes to get through what's inevitably coming - with no regard to dates, presently.

If I'm wrong in anything I've said here just now, I pray I'm forgiven also, but this one thing I do know that's true -

JESUS LOVES YOU VERY MUCH BROTHER Ironman.

Annie



 2008/1/4 19:07
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Perhaps it is because they studied the Word of God and knew that that Word has all we need to know of the present, past and future if we will but put our hearts into it and into knowing HIM.



Excellent thought! I agree 100%

Quote:
Not to say that God does not speak with revelations to His servants, but revelations FROM the Word, not apart from it.



Bullseye again. The centrality of the Word, the complete and utter underlying spring of all thought, word and action for the Christian. Any deviation from the Word (no matter how slight) is akin to playing Russian Roulette with a fully-loaded revolver. Total immersion in the Word will keep you clean and sober with sure footing always; straying from the Word to personal flights and fancies will spell doom in no certain terms.

Quote:
And speaking of prophetic... when my family and I left the Revival Conference, the children said, speaking of Brother Keith Daniel's message..."man it was like you were hearing one of the Old Testament prophets standing in front of you"...



Amen brother. I, too, have heard brother Keith speak and I always come away amazed at the true, genuine prophetic being displayed through his message of holy surrender and absolute purity. I believe if a man will just surrender to God and preach holiness and righteousness through a clean heart and conscience, God will not allow any of his words to fall to the ground. The preacher will speak and not even realize he is already in the true prophetic.

He should never have to say, "Thus sayeth the Lord..." or "God came into my room last night and took me by the hand and led me into a fiery abyss and there I saw Chicago on fire and New York exploding..."


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/4 19:16Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

quote:He should never have to say, "Thus sayeth the Lord..." or "God came into my room last night and took me by the hand and led me into a fiery abyss and there I saw Chicago on fire and New York exploding..."

Amen!




I believe a very good test for those who have a desire for a prophetic calling may do well to hear Paul's word regarding Timothy and then Paul's words to Timothy in the qualifications regarding a bishop and a deacon.


Philippians 2:19 - 22 (NKJV) 19But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state. 20For I have no one like-minded, who will sincerely care for your state. 21For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus. 22But you know his proven character, that as a son with his father he served with me in the gospel.

Those who are qualified to lead must first learn to follow, hence Elijah-Elisha in the Old, and Paul and Timothy in the New.


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/1/4 19:35Profile





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