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 Re: Prophetic Credentials - II


Dear Mike,

I was not sure how to reply to your post - if at all - but to acknowledge it without disputing your comments seems best:

Quote:
our very atmosphere is filled with prognostications of dispair

Quote:
I can only offer that I accept what he said fully, yet try not to infer anything from it in relationship to the specific predictions we are discussing in this thread.

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My point is not to denounce any prediction, but only to say that predictions can't be tested except by the outcome. And if the outcome isn't as plain as the prediction given, then it has failed the test.

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This makes me sad

You're right - whichever outcome we receive.

I seem to remember in Fair Sunshine, a stunning example of prophecy, which came true to the day. Really there's no argument. I see that.

 2007/12/23 1:33
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Prophetic Credentials I, II, III

[i] When he is quiet, who can condemn? When he hides his face, who can behold him, whether it be a nation or a man?--[/i] Job 34:29

[i]God will be justified when he speaks and clear when he judges.[/i] ~ Matthew Henry

IRONMAN,

Certainly we have gone around and around with our perspectives on this ... Too much emphasis on the man, too much on the opinion and explaining ... Somehow the attempt I am after is at the root, to somehow get us all to think more largely about what all this entails. This really has less to do with yourself personally than you might think ... hence the generalities. This is not a question of your love to the Lord or your heart or your 'burden' or what the outcome will dictate and your response and ours likewise. Forget all that for a moment.

I lifted that line from Matthew Henry as it stood out and arrested my attention while I was looking for another verse having to do with what the Lord conceals from us.

"God will be [i]justified[/i] [b]when He speaks[/b] and [b]clear[/b] when He judges"

If we are purporting to be mouth pieces for the Lord, speaking either directly His thoughts or even His very own words ... How large and incredible is that? How is it such a lite matter in this day where we have thousands of these mouth pieces and hardly are any of them put to the test of ... authenticity. It's as if it really just doesn't matter at all. We have made gullibility a byword in this era of Christianity and lifted men and there utterances up to the level of untouchable in so many cases that the inference is to err on the democratic side of the law, innocent until proven guilty. That just cannot be the way we go about this, for we are not talking about fallen, fallible men but God Himself. The standard is set and unmovable, [i]let God be true and every man a liar[/i]. That means there is no hit and misses only as Robert wrote; "Simply put, if God spoke it [u]will[/u] come to pass." And to finish that thought; "if man spoke it [i]might[/i] come to pass."

[i]If[/i] ... This seems to be the operative word, [i]if[/i] ... Is this not where we find ourselves? Hedging bets as it were? What makes this all the more difficult is something that crosses my mind all the time here, for the better part we are Brethren together, not opposing ... what it is the word here ... entities. This is not the Pharisees or the 'heathen' vs. the Church. Am inserting this for recognition and also that the brothers still understand where the generalities stop and start, am sure you can read through that which is applicable or not, for instance whether or not this is taken lightly by you, there is no doubting sincerity. However, sincerity, burden, validation all these things are, at the core all besides the point.

Recently read through Andrew Strom's book on leaving the prophetic movement and there is enough fodder in there to be both righteously indignant as to weep profusely over what is happening in this day and age of ... un-thinking Christianity. Prophets for hire as it were, prophets that 'will speak into your life' or whatever the crass, beguiling vernacular for ...[i]money[/i]!?

Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

2Co 2:17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. (ESV)

It just goes on and on, unchecked, untested, un-[i]contested[/i]. It's air and wind and noise and contrary to even the scriptures that so much of this is even derived from, twisted and contorted to suit whatever flavor and imagination that flows through these corrupted melons of ours.

Words. Our words. God's word. Words carry meaning and depth and ramifications. How they are weilded or restrained. Mentioned earlier this tremendous thought;

[i]"The Lords testimony"[/i]

What of it? What [i]about[/i] it? Is it not at stake? Brother Denny made much of it during the recent conference and so did we by emphasis, or rather Greg by highlighting it for a season afterwords, drawing attention to it. Not the only one for certain, this was a common construct and appealing of T. Austin Sparks, is it not important in our considerations of these things, of all things that we have to do with?

Some words can stand alone and speak volumes. One that comes to mind along these same lines and especially as it pertains to so much of this prophetic business ...

Reproach



At this point it just goes on to be redundant, Robert and MC have brought out better grasps of this of late and others far earlier.

Quote:
these last few days have been something of a roller-coaster between me fussing about things i don't like about myself which i think would disqualify me from this to then conceding that God chooses as He pleases, from being unsure and being certain...from wonderings if this is a ploy of the enemy or God Himself...yet even in spite of all this, the latter always wins. i've considered if this is the enemy bro Mike, it has occured to me.



Guess I would have figured as much brother and the intent wasn't one of hostility, seems you recognized that. Trust an allowance that I hear that voice and am taken away by it unaware far more often than I could wish. In fact, if we haven't been bothered by that voice in some form or fashion it might be raising a whole different set of questions, the largest being why are we being left alone ...

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As for these men? I believe charity is always in order. Charity and humility can walk together. It is not necessary to be a 'recognized prophet' in these last days. No need for banners and titles. If you would be stripped of it; what have you really lost?



Couldn't agree more.

Quote:
It is my experience, that when God really speaks to me, especially something that is drastic, I always come away in great awe and wonder. I handle what I have received with fear and trepidation. I allow God to keep dealing with me about it as opposed to going off the deep end too fast. For this cause I have practiced moderation in these types of things and cautiously not allowed myself to be deceived into destroying myself. The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Sometimes it is like fire shut up in our bones; but in any case one ought to always tread cautiously when they send out a "THUS SAITH THE LORD." Not so much that we fear the prophetic gifts and all, but that we don't presumptiously speak for the Lord.



Holding back, allowing time and space, patience ... waiting. One of the places I find myself getting into the most trouble is, strangely enough, straight from the prayer closet and this ambition to start writing first thing in the morning. The day progresses and the words are often still churning and by the time it comes to a close I often have all these regrets for not holding back and really considering just what I am presenting out there. Perhaps that is a bit off the subject of particular 'prophesying' ... Speaking of holding back ... Have been really reluctant to say this in many places for a number of reasons, maybe it's just to try and hone in on the heart\root matters so much ... But, the Lord is not completely silent to me, just more often than not, it is not a steady stream of dialouge, will grant my suspicions of others that seem to think this is the case, I am just being honest here, this day grants much to be wary of. There are two voices or better, let me put it this way ... The only ones that ever call me Michael are my mother and the Lord. My Ma is not around anymore to draw off everything unspoken that comes along with hearing her say my name that way and others could well use it rather than the abbreviated version, it just doesn't have the same ... ramifications. "Martha, Martha" is often "Michael, Michael" by way of that hard to describe ... intuition, that's not the word I am thinking of ... the Lord grabs our attention, "speaks" ...

[i]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/i] Joh 10:27

I do not know how we pit one against the other here, for instance what Rahman or IRONMAN is 'hearing' over against what little I might ... perceive. More likely than not I would grant that I rarely put anything out here of this style because it is either just very personal or not worthy of even being put to the test in the first place. Interesting thought there, ... [i]is it worthy of being tested[/i]? There is a large question and perhaps where so much of this prophetic 'movement' is arrested at it's inception ...

[i]" ... that we don't presumptiously speak for the Lord[/i]"


Sister,

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However, the hurt wasn't important, but the fact that you rejected a true prophetic word. Even at the time I was at least as much hurt on your behalf as on my own! And even more on the Lord's behalf, because it was very much in line with Scripture,



Quote:
I could post it again, but don't know if it will help as you were so very resistant to it at the time, and may still be.

True, but the word I posted was nothing at all like that!

Again I agree, but that makes your point-blank rejection of the word I shared so perplexing, because it was nothing like these kinds of words.



Finding this all to be quite unfair in all honesty. I have absolutely no recollection of any of this sister, how can I be expected to respond? If you think about it, there are hundreds and hundreds of posts and threads and members that have been absorbed here. I might once again recall it if I could see it again and who knows what differences of thought might now be at hand, would forward I might have a completely different reaction\understanding depending on the content, the time lapse since ... I find myself being constantly challenged and changing my mind on so many things here, I couldn't begin to express it. This is a large and I think wonderful function of this very forum, much to consider! Caught something that had to do with SermonIndex by way of gospelcom (noted at the bottom of this site) that was expressing that a disciple is in effect a ...[i]learner[/i]. Praise God! That is the very heart of it, to learn and to grow and to help others ... What an incredible thing to be part of.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/12/23 12:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:

Quote:
...I could post it again, but don't know if it will help as you were so very resistant to it at the time, and may still be...

Finding this all to be quite unfair in all honesty. I have absolutely no recollection of any of this sister, how can I be expected to respond? If you think about it, there are hundreds and hundreds of posts and threads and members that have been absorbed here. I might once again recall it if I could see it again and who knows what differences of thought might now be at hand, would forward I might have a completely different reaction\understanding depending on the content, the time lapse since ... I find myself being constantly challenged and changing my mind on so many things here, I couldn't begin to express it. This is a large and I think wonderful function of this very forum, much to consider! Caught something that had to do with SermonIndex by way of gospelcom (noted at the bottom of this site) that was expressing that a disciple is in effect a ...[i]learner[/i]. Praise God! That is the very heart of it, to learn and to grow and to help others ... What an incredible thing to be part of.

Mike, sorry if I misjudged you on this. It was certainly true at the time that word was shared. It's just that I'm rather fearful that you will again reject it. It was a call to all leaders, or others who have any kind of spiritual responsibility. So to have it scorned was hard to bear.

I will post it to you privately. You were probably reacting to other things that were going on at the time. At least I hope so.

Come to think on, David Wilkerson also prophesied more than once of coming judgements on America, as have others on Britain (Clifford Hill for example) though I don't think anyone gave a time scale.

Do you witness with some, or all, of what he has said?

Re Ironman and Rahman's prophetic word, my only doubt is the timing. That economic collapse is coming is in no doubt, and doesn't even need a specific prophecy to discern. It's plain in Scripture that things such as this will happen increasingly throughout the whole world. We Christians in the Western world have grown so comfortable and have such a false sense of security, that, unless we are prepared, we may well go under when this judgment really starts to hit (whether it begins with economic collapse or in some other way).

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/12/23 13:43
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Re Ironman and Rahman's prophetic word, my only doubt is the timing.



We shouldn't let our convictions regarding what America deserves tempt us to make a mistake here.

As you have said, Ironman, and Rhaman, aren't the only people who have given timeframes to these things and have been wrong. And the consequense of our biased treatment of these unrealized prophecies is that even believers, let alone the unbelievers, are getting tired of the false alarms.

I believe we could even coin a phrase for this symptom among the brethren...Prophecy fatigue. Immunity to God's word is the consequense of not caring whether our prophesies are real messages from heaven or simply personal convictions. (Though personal convictions of a Godly person are most precious, they have no business posing as the very Words of God.)

It is my intention to be soft spoken, but the more we try to pass over this with a magic wand the more I will protest and hair split. And before people wonder if I am against prophecy, it may very well be that my rigid insistence on testability allows me to claim I hold prophecy in higher esteem then the 'prophets' themselves, who seem to allow the straw to be mixed in with the gold without losing a wink of sleep. Personally I couldn't imagine daring to speak for God without this type of utter accountability.

Now, many of us are not called to be teachers, prophets, or preachers. Yet all of us are called to hold the Word of God with the utmost of our various intellectual, emotional, spiritual, and physical strengths. In that context, how greatly we have allowed the walls of our city to fall in disrepair. There are no boundaries anymore...few of us can tell Spirit from feelings because we bring no discipline to our study of the scriptures.

Truly we are lax to compare Ironman's and Rhamans unrealized pronouncements to the word of God. Even David Wilkerson has spoken out of turn, and at least on one occasion he admitted he spoke not with inspiration but out of fear. Yet we love these men so much we refuse to take them off their pedastals.

Am I against propechy? I should hope not! But propehcy is like preaching...it requires more then the texture and rhthym of what has come before...it requires the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of truth knows how to tell time by the way...he does not miss dates.

In discerning the difference from our sincere pretensions to true heaven born Words, I am reminded of a quote by the music critic Virgil Thomas. Whenever he heard a new piece of music he would measure it's importance by a simple but elusive metric. Is this just a good piece of clockwork, or does it actually tell time?"

Well there is too much well intentioned speaking today, whether it be in the pulpit, the street, a book, or on the internet, that only superfically resembles greatness. In the end, little of it is telling us what time it really is.

I anticipate that many here will respond by informing us that New Testament prophesy isn't meant to be 100% reliable. To that I respond that if prophetic integrity is discretionary then prophetic listening is also. If the prophet will not hold himself accountable for how he speaks, how dare he hold others for how they listen?

Personally speaking, if and when the crisis comes, I will want to deal minute by minute with only plain facts and not sncere speculation. I will not listen to any well-meaning leader, spiritual or secular, who does otherwise. Anyone who has been in a dangerous or time-critical situation knows what I am talking about.

My goodness, many here are so quick to accuse President Bush of lying for the failure of his intelligence agencies. These are mere human agencies...yet we openly call the President of the United States a liar. Then we are reluctant to humbly yield when our own intelligence agencies are also wrong. We believed these events would happen in 2007, and we believed our sources were authentic...but the facts are plain; we were misinformed. Let's not compound our mistake by adopting new doctrines of relativity regarding New Testament prophecy.

If 1.1.08 passes by without a collapse, then our brothers have not prophesied. They are still our brothers, but they are not prophets. I am merely observing. Does anyone see something else?

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/12/23 14:39Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Mike B Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
If we are purporting to be mouth pieces for the Lord, speaking either directly His thoughts or even His very own words ... How large and incredible is that? How is it such a lite matter in this day where we have thousands of these mouth pieces and hardly are any of them put to the test of ... authenticity. It's as if it really just doesn't matter at all. We have made gullibility a byword in this era of Christianity and lifted men and there utterances up to the level of untouchable in so many cases that the inference is to err on the democratic side of the law, innocent until proven guilty. That just cannot be the way we go about this, for we are not talking about fallen, fallible men but God Himself. The standard is set and unmovable, let God be true and every man a liar. That means there is no hit and misses only as Robert wrote; "Simply put, if God spoke it will come to pass." And to finish that thought; "if man spoke it might come to pass."



i believe you have touched on some things here which i didn't pick up right away. indeed we have a lot of people running around saying tey speak for God and aren't tested. i suppose in many ways it is an indictment against us, our laxity for if men can be so bold as to say they speak for God when they don't, it's a symptom of something deeper...the word says he who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall be given a prophet's reward. that implies somehow that there is a point at which that prophet is proven true and perhaps we may have gotten the receiving part down a little too well...i guess that was part of bro Katz's work...there have been times when i've read words/books of heard men saying things which i've felt were dubious at best and wondered why nobody said anything...as you said though from the word the standard is let God be true and each man a liar.

Quote:
Guess I would have figured as much brother and the intent wasn't one of hostility, seems you recognized that. Trust an allowance that I hear that voice and am taken away by it unaware far more often than I could wish. In fact, if we haven't been bothered by that voice in some form or fashion it might be raising a whole different set of questions, the largest being why are we being left alone ...



that last line made me think, when things seem to be going too smoothly, check your surroundings...somehow it has been for me that when i'm on the Right Path, it's always uphill, there is always resistance in one form or another from within as the flesh rebels against what God is working out and from without to some degree also. do you find this in your own walk?

Quote:
Holding back, allowing time and space, patience ... waiting. One of the places I find myself getting into the most trouble is, strangely enough, straight from the prayer closet and this ambition to start writing first thing in the morning. The day progresses and the words are often still churning and by the time it comes to a close I often have all these regrets for not holding back and really considering just what I am presenting out there. Perhaps that is a bit off the subject of particular 'prophesying'



you know i sometimes have that same experience but i find God does something to shift my focus so i remain still for a while, or sometimes i have to say 'hold up..." lest i run my mouth...like you there have been times when i have run my mouth and afterwards been like "uh oh..."praise God though that He works in spite of us coz Lord knows we sure can mess it up...now this may not be so apparent to you but what you said though has a everything to do with prophesying...because prophecy is not only speaking the Heart of God to His people but also at the time of His choosing and often there is a period of waiting, perhaps short or long in the interim. i've found i don't like thinking of the consequences of when i mess up sometimes because they are often pretty big...as believers the things we do and say and think somehow affect us all in some way...not sure if that makes sense.

Quote:
Speaking of holding back ... Have been really reluctant to say this in many places for a number of reasons, maybe it's just to try and hone in on the heart\root matters so much ... But, the Lord is not completely silent to me, just more often than not, it is not a steady stream of dialouge, will grant my suspicions of others that seem to think this is the case, I am just being honest here, this day grants much to be wary of. There are two voices or better, let me put it this way ... The only ones that ever call me Michael are my mother and the Lord. My Ma is not around anymore to draw off everything unspoken that comes along with hearing her say my name that way and others could well use it rather than the abbreviated version, it just doesn't have the same ... ramifications. "Martha, Martha" is often "Michael, Michael" by way of that hard to describe ... intuition, that's not the word I am thinking of ... the Lord grabs our attention, "speaks" ...



bro Mike you have no idea how that blessed me so! i suppose we're trying to get at the root from opposite ends of the tree, not that we are fighting but differing perspectives of the same thing maybe like the blind folk holding different parts of the elephant...as for God speaking to you, a part of me said/thought "well why didn't you say so sooner!? i 'm glad there are more weirdos out there1" but i suppose also that same reluctance you felt is the same i do and that oft keeps me from volunteering the info you just did to others. a couple of weeks ago a lady in our sunday school class asked if anyone had dreams from our Lord, she doesn't and i stuck my hand up...nobody else did...perhaps it's not so much that you're weird for hearing God's voice calling you "Michael, Michael" but perhaps it's more weird that as His children, we don't all hear Him call? something i have been thinking about awhile now.

Quote:
I do not know how we pit one against the other here, for instance what Rahman or IRONMAN is 'hearing' over against what little I might ... perceive. More likely than not I would grant that I rarely put anything out here of this style because it is either just very personal or not worthy of even being put to the test in the first place. Interesting thought there, ... is it worthy of being tested? There is a large question and perhaps where so much of this prophetic 'movement' is arrested at it's inception ...



as i said i believe we have differing perspectives but the end result which God desires is that we end up more like Him. We're pressing for the Truth. i see more clearly where you're coming from and it is a most important place because we do need to try things and see what sort they are. you know bro Mike God may have called you to this work and perhaps there is much that you may not think is worthy of being tried that ought to be. that is between you and our Lord however so y'all work that out. you asked a question, "is it worthy to be tested?" if we don't let things be tested, as you said in a previous post, the error is compounded. if i'm in error over what i believe ?God said, i do not want to continue in it coz that further muddies muddy water...the last thing i want to do is to speak presumtuously for/about God.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/23 15:24Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Iron Man

Maturity.

The lack of this is very evident.
You might deny this but you are drawing attention to yourself not to God.

I am not trying to take away anything God has spoken to you. Hold that close to your heart.

Luke 2v18-19 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

If you are called to be a Apostle/Prophet then good. To come on here and tell everyone this shows the lack of maturity.

God will promote you in due season and in due time. What you are doing right know is your promoting yourself. You need to stop.

Hope you still love me
:-) :-) :-)


_________________
Colin Murray

 2007/12/23 16:52Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, afew points from an old man...God gives gifts and people receive them;healings,words etc.the minister is a conduit only... a wire in elecricity or a hose . wires and hoses have no annointing and are worthless unless properly hooked up to the source. the receiver gets all the benifit of the annointing stemming from the Source. it is so stupid to give{or take} any credit for being a wire or hose or the chisel used my michelangelo. jimp

 2007/12/23 21:54Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimp Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:

jimp wrote:
hi, afew points from an old man...God gives gifts and people receive them;healings,words etc.the minister is a conduit only... a wire in elecricity or a hose . wires and hoses have no annointing and are worthless unless properly hooked up to the source. the receiver gets all the benifit of the annointing stemming from the Source. it is so stupid to give{or take} any credit for being a wire or hose or the chisel used my michelangelo. jimp



AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/23 21:58Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Prophetic Credentials I, II, III

Quote:
Mike, sorry if I misjudged you on this. It was certainly true at the time that word was shared. It's just that I'm rather fearful that you will again reject it. It was a call to all leaders, or others who have any kind of spiritual responsibility. So to have it scorned was hard to bear.



Not sure why you would be fearful of that sister, it matters little what I might think or 'reject'. I did read it again but will admit that I began to check out almost immediately. Whatever this may be it doesn't sound like nor bear any witness that it is the voice of the Lord. A difficult thing to say as it would be to further develop the question, "What then does His voice 'sound' like"? To be truthful I have not the foggiest idea in one sense having never heard it ... Am I about to climb into a hole I can never get out of? Especially after mentioning how I do perceive the Lords inflections\promptings though they be quite rare?

The easiest way to put this is, does it sound like the sound of scripture? There is as much first person speaking here as to certainly suggest that these are supposedly the Lords words but they do not breed that familiarity ... Anyone that we know intimately has an inflection and way and a manner that bypasses our best articulation, you just know the person by the combined qualities that make up the whole. This may be the closest I can get to some assimilation.

I am sorry, but these things still make me cringe even if there is nothing inherently wrong with whatever the content is, it may be a man's thoughts about God's thoughts, but His thought's alone? I don't think so, no.

Feel free to post it again though, it is a bit difficult to discuss this without the benefit of everyone else and makes this a bit too personal.

Quote:
Do you witness with some, or all, of what he has said?

Regarding Wilkerson? Think I would be of the same mind as MC ... mixed. Even Art Katz ... What I found especially earnest was his admission that he may well be wrong but he was also quite a bit different in his ... foretelling, if it must be put that way. Mentioned this elsewhere, but there is a message where a brother interrupts him and begins prophesying (In Kings James English) that never has really sat right even though he remarks at the conclusion of the brother speaking something along the lines of "To be spoken to by the Living God". The content wasn't anything of future tense forth telling ... I don't know, I really don't have a reference point or idea in mind when it comes to these things other than what was already mentioned, that 'sound' of scripture.

MC, man it is difficult to lift from the whole here ...

Quote:
It is my intention to be soft spoken, but the more we try to pass over this with a magic wand the more I will protest and hair split. And before people wonder if I am against prophecy, it may very well be that my rigid insistence on testability allows me to claim I hold prophecy in higher esteem then the 'prophets' themselves, who seem to allow the straw to be mixed in with the gold without losing a wink of sleep. Personally I couldn't imagine daring to speak for God without this type of utter accountability.



That's it, a higher accountability and higher esteem. Also, believe this is far more rare than the constant and now commonness it has been largely made out to be. Besides, still think we have some very muddy understandings between prophecy\teaching vs. so much future-casting anyway. I concur brother, wholeheartedly.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/12/23 23:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Quote:
Re Ironman and Rahman's prophetic word, my only doubt is the timing.

We shouldn't let our convictions regarding what America deserves tempt us to make a mistake here...

Hi MC

I assume your post refers to what I said, as you have quoted part of it?

I don't quite understand what you mean, unless you are speaking generally?

What is it to do with what I (or anyone else) [i]thinks[/i] America deserves? I'm not even American! Or what is it to do with personal convictions?

I was speaking about things I know, not solely or even primarily to do with America - except that what happens to America, as the only superpower, will no doubt affect the whole Western world.

What really puzzles me is why it isn't obvious to all that there are more difficult times ahead than we have yet known, and we need to be ready spiritually, or else we will go under.

Remember what Jesus said, "When the Son of man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

in Him

Jeannette

 2007/12/24 16:25





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