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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Putting the GOODNESS and GLADNESS back into the GOSPEL

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b]JOY UNSPEAKABLE[/b]
Barney E. Warren (1867-1951)
1900

I have found His grace is all complete,
He supplieth ev’ry need;
While I sit and learn at Jesus’ feet,
I am free, yes, free indeed.

Refrain

It is joy unspeakable and full of glory,
Full of glory, full of glory,
It is joy unspeakable and full of glory,
Oh, the half has never yet been told.

I have found the pleasure I once craved,
It is joy and peace within;
What a wondrous blessing! I am saved
From the awful gulf of sin.

Refrain

I have found that hope so bright and clear,
Living in the realm of grace;
Oh, the Savior’s presence is so near,
I can see His smiling face.

Refrain

I have found the joy no tongue can tell,
How its waves of glory roll!
It is like a great o’erflowing well,
Springing up within my soul.

Refrain


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/26 10:52Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I have found that it is a light thing to preach repentance. It is another thing to bring a message that folk can be delivered from the chains of sin that has them utterly in bondage. Sleepless nights are increasing in my musings and longing to see a people loosed from their infirmities.... Can we pray with that level of faith and focus? Can we pray with such compassion?...that God may loose them and save them and God send them their way clothed in His white robes and with the mind of Christ.



Dear Robert! You are opening Heaven here!

I find that we human beings can believe in repentence, supernatural manifestations, and revivals but we have a hard time believing what you are describing here.

This is the Gospel you are telling us about brother! It is one thing to read about it in books but quite another to see it for yourself. You are blessed among men brother. Perhaps many, in the pulpit or out of it, don't preach the gravepassing transformation of the Gospel because in reality...they have never believed it themselves.

I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you do not accept our testimony.

Many of us look for a revival where God will be moved to give us an addendum to His Gospel...an extraneous outpouring of power, a supernatural supplement to finally be a church. Robert, if we could get the understanding, the life, you are trying to convey here...and believe it...what further cry for an appendix of revival would the church need? After recieving the Jesus of the Gospels into our hearts, revival(edit:)is the only possible outcome.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Brother let us return to our unfinished business at the cross...let us join you at the altar.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/7/26 11:12Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b]Some Thoughts on: "HOLINESS OR HELL"- PREACHING[/b]

The official soteriological position of the PCG organization under which I have been a part of through the years is highlighted in Dr. Aaron Wilson's introduction to Bible Doctrines titled, [i]Basic Bible Truth[/i]. In part the statement reads, [i]Our salvation is [u]not fragile[/u][/i]. Yet, this has not always been the position of individual ministers who preached in the small country towns of Southern Missouri (and I'm sure other places and denominations).

It's a joy to sit down with older Spirit filled ministers who are now up in years and listen to them pour forth their wisdom. I love to hear about the old days when local revivals would take hold and whole communities would be effected. I have lots of old tapes of their preaching that contained references to Wesley, G. Campbell Morgan, The Welsh Revival, and others. Messages like you would hear right on SI, but with a Pentecostal fireyness. Yet, there is a constant [u]caution[/u] I am met with in the undertones of these talks, and it is that of so-called "Holiness or Hell" type preaching.


When I say, "Holiness or Hell" what comes to [i]your[/i] mind? Salvation through sanctification? Tight rope Christianity? Well, the passage of scripture I wish to begin with is Hebrews 12:14,

Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

There was a generation of preachers that lived many years ago that preached a message that they themself could not live. They made [i]reputations[/i] for themselves that they could not live up to. From my personal research it all began during the transition that some made from Methodism to Pentecost. There was a sense that whatever may offend God had to be done away with. This gives rise to 'Achan's Tent' sermons in which a tent might be set up and the preacher goes into the tent and brings out items that he feels may be [i]hindering[/i] a move of God. I don't think this is all bad, but not all people agree what should come out of the tent. It gave rise to many teachings that were based purely on personal convictions.

It is an admirable thing that folk would want to cast-off anything that would possibly grieve the Holy Spirit. Yet, it is not long until this thing can go to wild extremes. Folk were bent on Holiness to such a level that 'fun' was actually considered a sin. Softball or some other activity at a youth camp was off the table. Finally when [i]non[/i]- coed swimming was approved down by the river, the boys had to swim in jeans and shirts. As if that were not enough Coffee was outlawed. Soon little old ladies were drinking cream and sugar in hot water, lest they offend God. TV's were a sin. The story is told of an old timey holiness preacher great uncle of mine who once preached against TV until the folk set their sets out on the curb. When the Sheriff got wind of it he was arrested. Many such stories I could tell.

In fairness I must say that God often moved amazingly in their meetings. There were a people who were 'genuine' and God knew their hearts. And yet there were other people who were also strict in those days. It was not all that uncommon for a preacher to have young children on the front rows and if they acted out- he stopped preaching, went down, 'blistered their hide' (that's old timey talk for a hard spanking), sat them back down on the bench, and went back up to preaching. Seem odd? How does that strike you? My personal feeling is that it came about from folk trying to serve God out of intimidation and fear and NOT out of [i]love[/i] and [i]joy[/i].

This had a most [i]horrible[/i] inpact on the children. Many walked out on God believing that they had to live an utterly holy life or they were going to hell. For some it was an excuse, but for others it was a genuine feeling of despair. The lack of love and joy, the long faces all the time, made for a life that few wanted to live. Their concept of Christianity was wildly off. Minister's who have been around for a while and seen this play out over the generations will tell you. Again, there is a constant [u]caution[/u] I am met with in the undertones of our conversations, and it is that of so-called "Holiness or Hell" type preaching.

Strangely, most modern day revivalists and repentance preachers would have to seriously 'repent' just to get in step with the ministers I'm referring to. Many would be 'skinned' (as they called it) under one of their tents or in their meetings. A list of points would likely include; TV, smoking, drinking (alcohol), cursing, chewing tobacco, secular music, playing cards, women wearing pants, tattoo's, Make up, braided hair, high heeled shoes, dancing (not in the Spirit), going to movie house, coffee, etc. God forbid a [i]man[/i] would ever be seen with an [i]earring[/i]. Those preachers would roll over in their graves over it. I'm certain of it.

Yes, Entire Sanctification (Total Sanctification) has a totally different meaning today than it did to my great great Methodist Grandma Amy Anne Vansel. She was a street preacher in Cole Camp Missouri. It is said that no one in the family had ever once seen her ankles or wrists. A few of the granddaughters came in wearing pants once and were met with the softest of rebukes. They later told that they felt like crawling under a rock or something. No, we know little about what these folk were all about.

The problem I see in all this is that folk tried to live this standard without the moving of the Spirit in place and it became vain [i]religion[/i]. Rebellion set in. Soon this created concern as folk tried to maintain the 'fire' with imposed rules and such. This was nothing more than formaldehyde in the carcass.

Ever once and a while I get a 'talking to' from one of those old timey preachers who have seen a [i]more excellent way[/i]. I guess I tend to walk and promote a lifestyle more in step with the old timers. I talk to younger revivalists and repentance preachers and we use the same terms but are pouring completely different meanings into the words. The old timers are doing the same thing in many cases. They are using the terms based on their understanding and experience and we should be aware of that.


The one piece of counsel perhaps I have heard this the most, [i]"Don't be so 'hitting' all the time - the people have to serve God out of joy and their love for Him." [/i] I keep it in mind and it helps me be more sensitive to the Holy Spirit.



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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/27 8:50Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b]THE PREACHING OF THE CROSS[/b]

[i]When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my righest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride[/i]. These are the words of the pen of a ready writer. These are the words of one who has saw something that others have not seen. It is the revelation of the Glory of God in the cross of Christ Jesus.

If I would take up my cross I must [i]preach[/i] the cross. [i]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/i] (I Corinthians 1:18) The Gospel, made possible through the sufferings of the cross is not preached with enticing words of man's wisdom. Wherein do we have to glory- save in the cross of Christ?

If I be persecuted in this life for the Gospel's sake, may it be for the preaching of the cross. For it was [i] at the cross, at the cross, where I first saw the light and the burden of my heart rolled away. It was there by faith I received my sight and now I am happy all the day, [/i] On a wooden bench under the mighty load of sin I saw a revelation of the love of God as He offered His Son for [u]my[/u] sins. [i]At the cross He beckoned me, drawing me gently to my knees, I was lost for words, sweetly broken and wholly surrendered.[/i] As my knees smote literally together and I trembled at His love, what could I do but surrender all to Him.

As if I had been Lazarus and the stone sat quietly before my life as the stinch of my sin and death filled the room- a voice called into the darkness a most glorious light. Not the name of another, not a general call He made. But my name- He called my name and up from the grave of Sin and death I came. He stinketh, some would say. But my ears were focused, as it were, upon that which I knew in my heart. And as if the Lord had said, "COAT"- remove these grave clothes and gird Him with this which I have woven special. "RING"- with this ring I thee...

If I had cried a river that day it had not been enough to express the feeling in my heart at the revelation of the price of my sin and His willingness to take my place. I shall never forget the the echo of those words, "MY GOD MY GOD... WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?" At once I wondered, "My God, my God, why had I forsaken Thee?" Yet, without a harsh tone or an angry look, His goodness led me to repentance. I heard of Him by the hearing of the ear... but now the eyes of my understanding being enlightened, I knew what was the [i]hope[/i] of His calling.

In the late 1980's as one of those who had stumbled gave a final bidding to preachers around the world. With little credibility left, and one last plea before he took his place in almost obscurity, he said these words, "Preachers if you ever stop preaching the CROSS, you have LOST it all!" The preaching of the cross has no more appeal today than it did when it was supposed to be foolishness in Paul's day. As if the ambassadors would say to their King, "Bid me take any message - save this one!" "Bid me tell of your anger- bid me tell of you wrath... I beseech Thee, Lord, let me go and warn them of everlasting burnings and the great gulf affixed; but press me not with the heavey burden of the Cross! I dare not think of it- I dare not tell of it. Repentance, faith, healing, deliverance, wrath, anger, joy, hope, please, I beg of thee, place into my hands any scroll but this! What have I to do with Thee, Lord, that thou would'st lay upon my back such a burden."

And in the silence a still small voice arises in our hearts... It is... It [i]is[/i] the power... It [u]is[/u] the power of God ... It IS [i]the[/i] power of God unto salvation to EVERYone that believes. Do you want souls saved... do you? Do you want to bring a message for your King? Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, IS THERE HOPE FOR THIS DARKENED WORLD? Yes, yes., but are you willing to humble your ears to hear? I beg thee, tell me? What is it? [i]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/i] (I Corinthians 1:18)



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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/28 7:46Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b]HURRAY! HURRAY! HURRAY![/b]

I was listening to a sermon recently in which the minister relayed the story of an experience he had in leading a man who had never known the Lord to salvation. Completely unversed in the stories and the language of Christianity, the minister shared with this man in the simplest of ways the story of the Prodigal Son. As the sharing neared a close it was time to pray. The minister prayed when at once was startled by the man praying for [i]himself[/i] a prayer that was based upon his understanding of the story he just heard. They prayed again, the man followed through with the message and it happened again; before the minister could get right started to praying, the man overtook him again and prayed for himself.

When finished the man looked at the minister and says, "I feel like jumping and shouting HURRAY!" So the minister says, why don't you? So the man commences jumping and shouting HURRAY! HURRAY! HURRAY! - in the most child-like of ways. The story has gripped me greatly. As I had never seen such a joyous case of a person passing from 'convicted sinner' to 'hopefully converted'.

Finney reasons that when a person truly turns to God in repentance and faith that the 'conviction' that weighed so heavy a hand upon the sinner turns to comfort with the deepest sense of joy and peace. When that 'controversy' with God is resolved and true submission is attained- joy cometh. Truly it is the 'touch' of God- it is the JOY of thy salvation.

Can you remember that joy? The joy that came when you trusted Christ and surrendered all to Him? When the heavy weight of your sin was removed and God issued a pardon for the multitude of your crimes? Oh what joy that came when God through your sin behind His back and cast them away buried from the sight of men. If there is one thing that men fear to have revealed it is the measure to which they have hurt God. Yet, when the Divine displeasure is removed and the blood cleanseth from all sin- joy cometh! Oh how deep a man can sleep when he knows his sins are carried away! To look God in the eye once again with a pure conscience- void of offense and free from controversy. There is nothing like it! There is no substitute for this joy if a million worlds were to be offered- they would be utterly despised a thousand times over.

I met just last week in the altar area of a youth camp where a 15 year old girl had given herself over to the Gothic life- a life of rebellion, drugs, and witchcraft. Covered with sighns that the enemy had been near, she fell on her face before God- even before the invitation was given. I felt pressed to make my way to the front and ask her but a few questions. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I HAVE DONE! I don't believe God can forgive me! I was saved as a child and I backslid and went into deep sin. I marveled and wondered- how could a 15 year old believe they had out sinned the blood of Christ? I pressed upon her the Gospel in all its power. This must have went on for an hour. It seemed to take that long just for the blinders to come off her eyes, and her mind to be sobered.

Having worn myself dry I called upon another dear saint to come and help us pray. She addressed this young lady with a most powerful unction and discourse. She compelled her to forsake her sin and renounce the powers of darkness that held her bound. She confessed (agreed with God concerning) her sin openly without reservation and this I believe she did once she realized that God truly wanted to reconcile.

We went to pray together with another dear praying saint and prayed the enemy would loose her from the bondage of sin. This may have been an additional hour. Finally after a few hours she broke through and the joy of the Lord flooded in. She began hugging the ladies with a huge smile on her face. What an awesome change in countenance! She said to them, "I feel like jumping for JOY!!" Well, go ahead then.

I watched for the next days and seen that same joy and glow. She switched out her gothic clothing and had settled down in her right mind. The love of the Lord took hold of her and she was able to tell those sisters she loved them for the first time in a long time. She gave a testimony Friday morning at the close of the youth camp. If you think about this story, say a prayer for her. I believed her life was changed by the power of the Gospel and for the first time she knows the Lord in the free pardon of sin.






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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/7 16:39Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b]LOVE WILL MAKE A WAY[/b]

I wish to share an encouraging series of experiences that have greatly influenced my life as I think over them from time to time. As I type this entry, there is a dear little old lady in a Nursing Home in Belton, MO. who has suffered her whole life with a cerebral palsy type physical infirmity. There was a time when she could walk, albiet it was difficult. She is one of the charter members of our church and has worked to do what she could to aid in the probigation of the Gospel. This dear woman's name is Doris.

Doris used her twisted hands and contorted fingers to weave pot holders for the church to sell for a small fee to raise funds. She had no job and was totally unable to work. When she was still walking she volunteered to go monthly to the church outreach to a hospital care center where her best friend lived. Her name was Juanita. Juanita was nearly a quadriplegic, her contorted body battered by years of suffering from what I presume was a similar disease as Doris. Completely helpless she was unable to help herself down the long hall way to the elevator and on to the other side of the hospital meeting hall. Doris volunteered to go to the hospital and with what little strength she had she balanced herself with the hand grip rails of the wheetchair and made her way down to the meetings. I have seen it with my own eyes more than once and what a sight to behold! I decided then that I had no excuses whatsoever for not doing what God called me to do.

In time Juanita grew sicker and weaker. She was elderly in her sufferings. She had an unshakable faith in Christ. She spoke to the people one day by way of her writing board. She held a pointer in her mouth and pointed to letters to spell out a message. She said to the Pastor that the Lord has shown me that he will be calling me home soon. I wish to donate some of my last checks to help people. This fund bacame the beginning of our food pantry. She asked the pastor if she could be baptized in water before she died. So she was taken to the church and baptized.

In time Juanita passed on and we attended the funeral. it was a wonderful remembrance of a dear Saint that loved God faithfully to the end. She had fought a good fight, she had finished her course, she had kept the faith. It seemed services were over and we were shaking hands ready to leave the grave side. In the distance I saw a man standing. You have probably seen scenes like this in movies... a man a little ways off observing leaning against his car. A few minutes and he walked up and introduced himself. "Hi, I used to be Juanita's neighbor, I used to come over to visit her." He continued,"You see, one day Juanita took out her writing board and slowly pointed out the letters that led me to salvation and I was won to Jesus Christ."

Few times in my life have moved me like that. I can almost see her twisted frame struggling to reach each letter, happy and trying to smile, full of the joy of the Lord. I was watching Ray Comfort last night as he talked about personal soul winning. A lot of times I have made excuses I suppose. And yet, those two ladies, Doris and Juanita are a powerful case. Maybe they didn't have a whole 'talent'. Maybe they only had a half a talent? But they took what God gave them and what an increase! I can't move my arms, I can't move my legs, I can't speak even as my speech has been overthrown by this terrible disease? Let this stick be my tongue and this letter board my voice. Can you imagine the unction of God that was upon each revelation of a letter as she spelled out the Gospel? No booming voice like a Whitfield. No on stage motions as a Billy Sunday. Just the pure revelation of the Gospel in a most simple medium.

Doris can't walk today. She can't make her pot holders. Yet, while her talent remained she used it to the fullest and the testimony of her and Juanita's gift will ever speak in my mind. What is in [i]your[/i] hand? What is in [i]mine[/i]?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/9 8:34Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b]KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD[/b]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. (II Corinthians 5:10-12)

Holiness of heart is a most unpopular subject. We had well been contented to present ourselves as if we were the epitome of sanctification. But if the things that have found a lodging place in our hearts that please [u]not[/u] the Lord were to be manifest in the consciences of the people, what then? Holiness of heart is an inward rejection of even the thought of wickedness. It is to love righteousness and hate iniquity. What more does the enemy challenge than this?

Now it happened, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, "Is it peace, Jehu?" So he answered, "What peace, as long as the harlotries of your mother Jezebel and her witchcraft are so many?" (II Kings 9)

Many want [i]peace[/i], but they don't want holiness of heart. They wish their conscience would lie down in silence so they flood their minds with words of grace and mercy and hold on to their their sinful thoughts. I can almost hear the man calling out to that great watchman within, the conscience, "conscience, tell me, is it peace? I beg of thee, give me not a bad report?" And yet, that unaffiliated member, that internal voice that resounds with the voice of a multitude, thunders back its report, "So he answered, "What peace, as long as the harlotries of thy tainted heart are so many?""

What does it profit to cry within ourselves, "peace!, peace!,... when there is no peace?" The goodness and gladness of the Gospel are reserved for those who have submitted themselves fully to the will of God. The Holy spirit will go to war against any rebellion in our hearts. He will not wait until the heart is full and the body headed for ruin, He will lift his voice like a trumpet. He will tell Israel her sins! What good is a false peace? What good is a false hope?

A dear brother a few years ago made a great statement. He said, "It is the good grace of God that He has put up with our sin [i]this long[/i]." Yet folk have within their heart that age old tendency to take advantage of a good thing. Soon grace is viewed as a free pass to put off yielding to the Holy Spirit today and submitting to His rule [i]right now[/i]. Almost as if one would say, "this grace will buy me time, I can put off until tomorrow what I ought to do today." Grace will give me time to break up with my 'lovers' slowly. What is this evidence of, I ask?

I hear the resounding words of the apostle echoing in my ears, [i]Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;...[/i]. This is a revelation of the terror of the Lord [i]in Paul's eye[/i]. That is to say, it was made real to him in such a way that it was no longer idle tales but had gripped his soul in truth. It was a revelation! He 'SAW' it. First it persuaded HIM. I might well persuade men, but have I persuaded [u]me[/u]? Has the terror of the Lord taken hold of me in such a way that anything less that holiness of heart and a pure conscience before God is unacceptable?

I believe that in times when we start to allow things to creep into our minds, hearts and then lives it is the direct result of not 'knowing' the terror of the Lord. That revelation is no longer before the eyes and it is open season on the pure conscience and the whited heart. Can a man entertain the revelation of the terror of the Lord and a temptation to entertain wickedness at the same time? I trow not.

This is the danger we face as the Lord brings us into balance in our proclimation of the true Gospel; that we would over indulge in His goodness and grace until we make ourselves vulnerable to the lies of the enemy. I have often heard preachers who God had laid it on their heart to preach repentance for a period of time suddenly sense the cloud moving to a different message when at once they torch what God has been saying through them previously. Almost as if suddenly we ought to be ashamed of preaching what the Lord was saying because the emphasis of the message was different then- than now. What God was saying then is just as valid as what He is saying now. This is not to say that we do not deal with excesses, but it is folly to disown a great work today that God was doing yesterday. It never has been an either or message (grace or holiness), it has been both.

Don't allow the enemy to put a trip on you about calling for repentance if you know that is what He was saying at that time. Hindsight is [u]not[/u] 20/20 in this case. This is not a "try it and see what happens"- type of thing. This is an "instant in season and out of season" [i]attempt[/i] to say what the Lord is wanting said. To place the emphasis where He is placing it in the 'here and now'. There is no place for second guessing if you believe with all your heart you are following the Lord. This does not mean we are to shut out counsel from spiritual believers either. But, I challenge you to look at the BIG picture and think back upon what God was saying and doing. If the Holy Spirit points something out that needs changing or correction that's one thing, but don't go there with the devil and let HIM critique your message. What did Paul say? [i]Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;...[/i] it was a great motivator of Paul and NOTHING to be ashamed of if it is fostered in a pure heart and anchored in love.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/11 7:51Profile
TonyS
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Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Good Morning,

You wrote:

[i]Don't allow the enemy to put a trip on you about calling for repentance if you know that is what He was saying at that time. Hindsight is not 20/20 in this case. This is not a "try it and see what happens"- type of thing. This is an "instant in season and out of season" attempt to say what the Lord is wanting said. To place the emphasis where He is placing it in the 'here and now'. There is no place for second guessing if you believe with all your heart you are following the Lord. This does not mean we are to shut out counsel from spiritual believers either. But, I challenge you to look at the BIG picture and think back upon what God was saying and doing. If the Holy Spirit points something out that needs changing or correction that's one thing, but don't go there with the devil and let HIM critique your message. What did Paul say? Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;... it was a great motivator of Paul and NOTHING to be ashamed of if it is fostered in a pure heart and anchored in love.[/i]


put a trip on you about calling for repentance ?

Hindsight is not 20/20 in this case ?

There is no place for second guessing ?

but don't go there with the devil and let HIM critique your message. ?

NOTHING to be ashamed ?


Why would we ALLOW the enemy of our soul to put a “trip” on us? Why would we ALLOW the enemy of our soul to believe hindsight is ever 20/20? Why would we ALLOW the enemy of our soul to second guess what the Spirit is saying? Why would we ALLOW the enemy of our soul to critique the Gospel? And finally, we are NOT ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God.

I am reminded of Solomon’s words,……. 27:5 Better is open rebuke Than love that is concealed. 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.

Your first entry with this series was:
[i]In summary, we have a powerless Gospel being preached as 'bad news' with no real signs and wonders and goodness following. We need to put down the bad news that hits people and pick up the good news that heals people. When the bad news don't work, many then compensate by ratcheting up the tone and trying to arm twist folk into getting saved. If that don't work, the denunciations start flying. [/i]


What is interesting to me, this series IS an attempt at hindsight. It is an attempt at second guessing, it is an attempt at critiquing. The reason? To put a “trip” on someone.. NO. In order to bring shame?.. NO.

Rather… that we might allow the Holy Spirit to fine tune our delivery, our understanding, our interpretation of the Gospel. If we allow Satan to put a trip on us from your series, then your attended affect has been thwarted. No, review, an inventory, reminiscing, examination of our past is for the intention to repeat that which was correct and to delete that which was not.

As I have mentioned previously, Setting the Trumpet to our mouth is only part of the equation. Hitting the right notes also is involved, knowing how long to hold that note is another, breathing techniques between notes as it is with singing is crucial. And as well WE are not the only members of the band!!! I started playing clarinet in the 5th grade, and when I put down the instrument as a High School Senior I was a far better developed musician. I assure you the “sound” of that clarinet was much different in 1984 than it was in 1978. Same instrument mind you, but the musician had a much better understanding and ability to handle it.

We have been blowing the trumpet with an intensity for a couple years now Robert, far more right notes than wrong I believe, because it has been fostered with a pure heart and anchored in love as you write. And the Holy Ghost desires that we learn there is more than JUST hitting the right notes even as with the above illustration.

God only has very frail, feeble humanity to deliver His message. And so if and when there is a problem it is NEVER with the Gospel and is always with the Messenger. "IF " there is any shame, it is only with my ignorance, my lack of compassion, my misunderstanding of agape Love and how to filter my delievery through that Love.

“Putting the Goodness and Gladness back in the Gospel?” It never left!! WE DECIDED to REMOVE it from the Gospel. WE decided to “persuade” men rather than the Holy Ghost to persuade them.


Our best,
TonyS


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/8/11 10:47Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
There is no place for second guessing [u]if you believe with all your heart you are following the Lord.[/u] This does not mean we are to shut out counsel from spiritual believers either. But, I challenge you to look at the BIG picture and think back upon what God was saying and doing. If the Holy Spirit points something out that needs changing or correction that's one thing, but don't go there with the devil and let HIM critique your message.



I was thinking this morning about Paul and the fornicating man in I Corinthians. He leveled upon him a most stern rebuke, but looked back later and in II Corinthians described the terrible feelings he dealt with for having to come off so strong.

But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.(II Corinthians 2:1-5)

Matthew Henry said, "We should always give pain unwillingly, even when duty requires that it must be given." I think Henry is right here. I have found it to be a perpetual attitude of heart. To be reluctant to bring pain and to feel concern afterward. [i]For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears...[/i] This is the heart of the apostle. He does not like confrontation with the Saints. Even when he has no other choice- he still does so grieving along the way. I dont think this is [i]"second guessing" though,[/i] in the usual sense. To second guess would be to cast doubt on what was said and open the door for the blame to shift from the fornicator to Paul. I know that seems odd, but I have seen it happen. Someone has to be confronted and then the 'confronter' apologizes as if the confrontation should not have taken place at all, when in reality they should have said, "I'm terribly sorry I had to do that." This is an attitude of displeasure at the process of confronting or causing pain.

I think this is why Ravenhill said often that Prophets were tragic figures. They loved the people, but they likewise feared the Lord. They had compassion for the people, but had to level upon the the word of the Lord. It is [u]not[/u] a pleasant thing when we know it will be a painful word to receive. Never should it be.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/8/12 12:51Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Yes, this passage you mention is useful I think. Whenever I read through this area of scripture I always think it similar to a Godly Parent who would have to administer discipline to a child. If the Parent is really interested in growth and not just punishment that parent will take the child in his arms afterwards and embrace them, that child will leave knowing Daddy or Mommy loves them.

This absolutely pictures what I have found so lacking and missing from what is called the “repentance message.” It has been often times a message that leaves the sheep crying, their backside smarting, and the shepherd stays not around to pour in the oil and the wine, with an embrace. I suggest if we would get it right, that shepherds embrace will be the very embrace of God to His sheep !!

tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/8/12 13:28Profile





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