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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Grace!

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 Re:

"For if God spared not the natural branch". The natural branch being the Jewish nation, (Gods chosen people)...... "take heed lest he spare not thee" (Paul is adressing the Gentiles, so the THEE is the Gentiles as a whole. It clearly is saying that since God did not spare the Jews in JUDGEMENT he will not spare the Gentiles either. If we as a PEOPLE turn our backs on God we WILL be judged just like the Israelites.)

"Behold the goodness and severity of God:" (this is an awesome portion of scripture. BEHOLD!!!! ATTENTION, I can hear a trumpet blowing in the background sounding out the magisty of the goodness and severity of God. The goodness of God is mercy. The severity of God is judgement.)

(Just read the following line.) "On them which fell severity". (The Israelites AS A NATION turned from God, and judgement came down upon them. The were "cut off" from the "GOODNESS" of God and the blessings were passed on to the Gentiles AS A PEOPLE. Israel is blinded by a vail until the "fulness of the Gentiles is come in." v.25)

"But toward THEE" (The Gentiles) "goodness, if thou continue in his goodness" (There is a stipulation to the goodness of God. If we AS A PEOPLE want to continue to have the GOODNESS of God rain down upon us, we must also continue in his goodness, or be judged like Israel.)

"Otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF". "Cut off", (just like Israel was cut off from the blessings of God, and the inheritance of eternal life, because they turned their back on God and rejected Jesus as Lord.)

"And THEY" (Israel) "If they abide not still in unbelief". (If they will turn from their unbelief and except Jesus as Lord.) "Shall be graffed in." (They shall become a part of the body.) "For God is able to graff them in again." (God has the power to restore them although they have been cut off IF they will except Jesus and turn from their unbelief.)



This has nothing to do with eternal security.
J-bird ;-)

 2006/6/30 0:58









 Re:

I'm trying to answer these questions as fast as I can but I have been very busy.

Quote:

Logic wrote:
J-bird wrote:
Quote:
What is the greatest motivator that satan has?

FEAR!!!

What does this have to do with leaving or keeping salvation?

Also,
please Tell me what you think of the comparison I gave to the natural father so ralationship to God and a son of His that leavs.

God question. I was hoping someone would ask.

Fear motivates a person to KEEP their salvation. The fear of going to hell. Right? "Good has not given US" (those who are born again) "the spirit of fear." Fear is for the unrighteouss, not for those who have already been birthed into the kingdom.

As for the inheritance deal. We can lose our inheritance(reward) but we are STILL his son.

J-bird :-D

 2006/6/30 1:12
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Quote:
"""When do we receive our salvation? Really not till we enter eternity, right? So how can you lose something you don't yet have?"""

Wrong!,, "thou shalt be saved" does not mean in the future. SHALT 4982. sozo
Search for G4982 in KJVSL
swzw sozo sode'-zo

from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

"be, make whole, now, not future.

Also, "confession is made unto salvation"

Unto us not future either:

UNTO: 1519. eis
Search for G1519 in KJVSL
eiV eis ice

a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This shall be saved is not future either, but the same word as shalt.
SHALL 4982. sozo
Search for G4982 in KJVSL
swzw sozo sode'-zo

from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

When we believe, we are already there. We are saved. You must separate Body, Soul and Spirit. If not we can never understand our salvation, past, our being saved, present, our will be saved, future. Saved in Spirit by the Spirit of Christ in you. Being saved by the Holy Spirit renewing our Soul, that is the mind will and intellect and emotions to the Mind of Christ. Will be save in body on resurrection day with our new body like His.

Paul very seldom speaks of the Past or the future, he speaks of the now more often, Now we are in Christ Jesus, and now Christ Jesus is in us. Just a small sample:
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the (end) everlasting life.

End means finally to the uttermost, the last thing we will receive, resurrection bodies.

NOW: Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/30 2:02Profile
n7rooivalk7n
Member



Joined: 2006/6/30
Posts: 11
South Africa

 Re:

Hi all,

I have been following this discussion on grace and I would just like to share a couple of thoughts.

I believe the understanding of the saving grace of Jesus Christ is one of the most important things that any born-again Christian should understand. I do believe that true salvation from Christ saves us for good, but not because we deserve it or have done anything righteous, but just because of God's amazing grace.

I agree with J-Bird on this issue, but I believe it's very important that we support our beliefs by what we find in the bible.

Where does the idea of backsliding(loss of salvation) come from? Not all born-again Christians achieve the same level of obedience or working of God in their lifes and sometimes make grave mistakes. These mistakes lead to guilt, and this guilt leads to a sense of hopelessness and failure. In this regard we should remember Rom 8:1

Then there are also those who never got saved and return to their sins.

The bible says that the gate that leads us into salvation is narrow and we should make every effort to enter into it. That's important. Many unsaved people make efforts to enter in, but weren't able. For us that are saved, we know that we have entered in. All efforts should be over. We KNOW that Christ has saved us and we should live through his grace. We CAN know that we WILL go to heaven.

For those who aren't saved or unsure it is important to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. If you are saved and doubt, may Rom 8:16 become true in your life, that the Spirit of God will witness with your spirit that you are a child of God.

Just because we are saved it doesn't give us a ticket to sin as we want to. All the more we should live in the obedience and grace of God

Be blessed
Johann


_________________
Johann

 2006/6/30 8:04Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

To: J-bird and n7rooivalk7n

Quote:


Where does the idea of backsliding(loss of salvation) come from?



It's not a case of backsliding, but a case of totaly departing from the faith.

David back slid but he never lost his salvation but Saul did. Saul totaly departed from GOD.

There is a story of a true born again believer that get angry with God and forsake Him even to the point of fighting again HIM. You can not say that he is still saved and going to heaven further more you can not say that he was never saved in the first place.

No, He didn't just loose his "reward".

Quote:
Fear motivates a person to KEEP their salvation. The fear of going to hell. Right?


Wrong!!!
[b]Love[/b] motivates a person to KEEP their salvation, Love fore Jesus. Fear is a lousy way to live with Joy.

Would you want your wife only to saty merried to you out of fear that you would kill her if she left you?
My wife loves me and therefor stays with me.
[b]1John 4:18[/b] [color=990000]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]
In other words:
There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with God punishing us.

Quote:
As for the inheritance deal. We can lose our inheritance(reward) but we are STILL his son.



If you dissown your father and hate him, would you or could you recieve inheritance?

Please, Tell me from common sence, how this son i'v been writing about will keep his salvation but only loose his reward?

 2006/6/30 10:43Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:
As for the inheritance deal. We can lose our inheritance(reward) but we are STILL his son.
If you dissown your father and hate him, would you or could you recieve inheritance?

Please, Tell me from common sence, how this son i'v been writing about will keep his salvation but only loose his reward?

His salvation is not up to himself, also his inheritance is not up to himself either. It is all up to God. I don't receive an inheritance because of what I do, I receive it because of who I am in the Father by the Son. Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Loose salvation, I don't think so, it is not mine to loose. Just like I did not loose my birth and could not loose it, it was not up to me to be born.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/30 12:00Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Christinyou wrote:

Quote:
His salvation is not up to himself, also his inheritance is not up to himself either. It is all up to God.

It is up to us to accept the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection.

That is what ous salvation stands on.
If we turn from that, tell me what then?

Quote:
I receive it because of who I am in the Father by the Son.


You just said in other words, who you are(when you were still an enemy of God), you received salvation because of who are in the Father by the Son.

How can you be a son in the Father by the Son before salvation to recieve salvation?

Don't make sence.

Quote:
Loose salvation, I don't think so, it is not mine to loose. Just like I did not loose my birth and could not loose it, it was not up to me to be born.



Think of salvation as a birthright through adoption as a son.

remember Esau?
Though you may be a son, you forsake your birthright.

 2006/6/30 12:52Profile









 Re:

Saul never lost his salvation. He just lost his annointing as the leader of Israel. He paid the price for his rebellion.

Did Samson lose his salvation? He died in much the same way as Saul. His rebellion caused his calamity. That's the result of rebellion once you are his possession. We WILL be judged if we rebel. Tha's how you can tell a Christian from a phoney. NO CHASTISEMENT!!!!!! Still, there is no verse in the bible that tells me if I sin TOO much I'm gonna end up in hell. There are plenty of verses that tell me I will be punished.

If he has bought us, we are his possession. It's not ours to keep.

J-bird

J-bird

 2006/6/30 15:37
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
Saul never lost his salvation. He just lost his annointing as the leader of Israel. He paid the price for his rebellion.


What do you think the Anointing represeants?

David cried...
[b]Psalm 51:11[/b] [color=990000]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.[/color]

[b]1John 2:20[/b] [color=990000]As for you, you have an anointing from the holy One and have perfect knowledge.[/color]

This anointing is the Holy Spirit as in

[b]2Corinth 1:21-22, 5:5[/b] & [b]1:21[/b] [color=990000]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath [b]anointed[/b] us, is God;
[b]:22[/b] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[b]5:5[/b] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[/color]
and
[b]Eph 1:13-14[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[b]:14[/b] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/color]

If you loose your anointing as Saul did, it is the same as looseing salvation.

Quote:
Did Samson lose his salvation? He died in much the same way as Saul. His rebellion caused his calamity.


Samson died in repentance.
Quote:
There are plenty of verses that tell me I will be punished.


[b]1John 4:18[/b] [color=990000] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath punishment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.[/color]
or
There is no fear in love, The thought of being punished is what makes us afraid. It shows that we have not really learned to love.
God does not punish His children, He diciplines us.

 2006/6/30 16:58Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

"""How can you be a son in the Father by the Son before salvation to recieve salvation?

Don't make sence."""

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now you are using semantics. I received sonship from the Father by the Son that is birthed in me. I did not choose to be a son and to be born again, I only believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The rest was up to My Father. He planted the Seed of my new birth just like my earthly father of my old birth, one earthly, the old man, the other heavenly new birth, new creature, new man. That new Seed is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/6/30 17:30Profile





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