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ertyroe
Member



Joined: 2006/5/9
Posts: 4


 Re:

lets not forget "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning," 2 Peter 2:20

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknoledge his name before my Father and His angels," Revelation 3:5

Yep the scripture is pretty clear you are not saved only by grace but also by the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit and the works he predestined for us to accomplish to lead us to perfection...

 2006/6/28 20:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
They can't lose their salvation because God CHOSE them.

I agree, but they can walk away from it.

It' not that He is their Father, but, the relaitionship they have with Him.

I may always have a father but if I disown him, how will I recieve his inheritance?
I will not, I will refuse it.

 2006/6/28 22:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ertyroe wrote:
lets not forget "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning," 2 Peter 2:20

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknoledge his name before my Father and His angels," Revelation 3:5

Yep the scripture is pretty clear you are not saved only by grace but also by the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit and the works he predestined for us to accomplish to lead us to perfection...

So Jesus is not good enough? We also have to work our way to heaven? Hmmmmmm :-(

 2006/6/28 22:59









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
J-bird wrote:
Quote:
They can't lose their salvation because God CHOSE them.

I agree, but they can walk away from it.

It' not that He is their Father, but, the relaitionship they have with Him.

I may always have a father but if I disown him, how will I recieve his inheritance?
I will not, I will refuse it.

So if I decide my father is no longer my father, than that makes him no longer my father? :-o

 2006/6/28 23:01
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

J-bird wrote:

Quote:
So if I decide my father is no longer my father, than that makes him no longer my father? :-o

correct, in relationship.

 2006/6/28 23:08Profile









 Re:

So if my relationship with my father goes far enough south than at some magical point he is suddenly transformed into a sonless father. How far will I have to go before it finally happens? Is it different for some people but not others? Can I jump across the line and jump back real quick like and still keep it? Or am I disqualified once I hit the ground on the other side?

I do agree that there are people who have never been truly reginerated that are trying to work their way to heaven.

 2006/6/28 23:28
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8

Did the thief on the cross have time to do good works before he went to paradise?

Murray

P.S. I believe you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is not the same as works.


_________________
Murray Beninger

 2006/6/28 23:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:

murdog wrote:
For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8

Did the thief on the cross have time to do good works before he went to paradise?

I agree. The thief did'nt even get dunked or sprinkled. ;-)

J-bird

 2006/6/28 23:47
RandyJ
Member



Joined: 2005/10/1
Posts: 49
Peace River, AB, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
When Jesus payed the ransom for our sins on the cross he was paying in advance. Right? He payed that debt before we were born or even thought of by our parents. He was also paying the debt for the saints that had already died and went to Paradise. Right? And he even payed the price for the thief who died with him.

Jesus payed for all our sins PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE. Yes!!! even the ones that we will commit in the future and if he has already paid the debt than why would he have to pay it again.



Wow, I thought that I opened up a can of worms when I started the thread on moral perfection!

I cannot help but notice that noone answered J-Bird according to his own logic. J-Bird has accepted the common theory that the atonement consisted of a payment of a debt. This teaching is completly absent from the scriptures. But scriptures are not used to arrive at this doctrine and so permit me to weigh the natural deductions of the teaching that the atonement consisted in the payment of our debt.

1) The atonement was made for all people. This is plain and let me note here that we are to look to the scriptures for the facts requisite to a proper understanding of this point. Some will postulate their peculiar teaching that the atonement consisted in the payment of a debt and at the same time will see that not all will be saved and then conclude that Christ only paid the debt for some people. We must not involve ourselves in this folly. The scriptures are plain the atonement was made for all people.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9

We can also see that the atonement must have been made for all people from the fact that God offers salvation to all people.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Acts 17:30

"that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

"If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." John 7:37

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:22

There are probably a multitude of other verses that could be shown in this connection. The point is this. Could God be fair in offering salvation to all people or any people for whome there was no adequate atonement? It would be like saying to a poor man "Hey come over to my house for a feast it only costs $500". It would be a mockery.

2) Not all will be saved. This is plain from the following verses:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1st Cor 1:18

I do not feel the necessity of showing a multitude of verses here at this point because I do not think that any of you will believe that all are going to be saved.

My reasoning is this. If the atonement was made for all people and not all will be saved then the atonement could not have consisted in the payment of our debt because then God would be presented as damning millions to Hell when the debt of their sin was already paid!!!!!And that would be nothing less than preposterous!

For the same reasons the atonement could not have consisted in Christ suffering our punishment instead of us. What!!!!???? Does our good God damn milliions to Hell when the punishment for their sin was already carried out on the cross of Christ???? Wow, now I think that I have opened up an even bigger can of worms.

No doubt, if Christ paid the debt of our sin on the cross then we could never lose our salvation, however, that teaching would be just as forcful in proving that all will be saved. Likewise, if Christ suffered the punishment of our sins then we could not lose our salvation but if Christ suffering the punishment of our sins made it impossible for us to lose our salvation then it would also be impossible for anyone to lose their salvation and noone will be in Hell.

If it is accepted, then, that I am right in my deductions then the question will be asked "How then are we saved by the blood of the Lamb?". Good question and I will, for now, refer the person would like the proper answer to that question to the following:

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/4/EdwardsAtonement/edwardsindex.htm

I simply conclude that the atonement was

[b]a condition[/b] of salvation along with other conditions that must perpetually be fulfilled in order for salvation to take place. I see the conditions as such:

1) Repentance. Sorrowing over your sin and returning to obedience. This must always be fulfilled. If you fall into a state of rebellion then you fall from salvation.

2) The atonement. The atonement was designed to produce a respect for the law of God that would have otherwise been produced by the punishment of the sinner. In order for this respect for the law of God to be produced in the mind of the sinner by the atonement then the atoenement must be believed and so faith in the atonement is also a condition of salvation. There is more than just a respect for the law that is produced by the atonement. Righteousness is also produced.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" Romans 10:10

Please ponder.


_________________
Randy Steinke

 2006/6/29 0:52Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Do we really understand salvation?

The following words caught my attention, as they relate well to this debate (taken from Randy’s Signature):

Quote:
Let it ever be borne in mind, that no passage or passages of Scripture prove any one doctrine which do not contradict every opposite doctrine.


There is another consideration – and that is the general condition of the church. Our modern day church closely parallels Israel’s history. To a significant extent we are dwell in the desert of unbelief – the vast majority have never entered the Promised Land. (though many talk like they know all about it) And, so discussions are often like theory lessons - void of experiential understanding.

Romans 8:14 tells us clearly who belongs to God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God, (they) are sons of God.” I inserted the “they” because I just heard this rendering in Ron Bailey’s sermon “Adoption” (found on SI) I had never before heard this verse as a qualifying condition of salvation. Until we accept that teaching, and until we walk in the Spirit and understand in the Spirit, we are just theorizing. Then we find ourselves assuming that “tasting the goodness of God”, “having knowledge of it”, making initial commitments, going forward, being missionaries, being zealous for God, being pastors, etc etc etc are indications of true regeneration.

Sadly, we have turned the condition of “salvation” into a lot of stuff that it is NOT. We have declared countless people saved because of what they did once, or because of some other qualifications based on our fragmented understanding. So no wonder we run into doctrinal snags. Truths don’t fit anymore, so we try to press something in to explain the inconsistencies (all those who obviously are “falling away”).

No where in the Bible does it outright say once you are SAVED, you can lose your SALVATION. But no where in the Bible does it give a specific formula for WHEN one is saved. (It is MAN who likes to do that) Jesus said that only the Spirit can give birth to spirit. “Like the wind, you can’t tell where it is blowing.” But since we can’t SEE the Sprit, we conjure up stuff that we CAN see, and use that as our qualifiers. (Yet God gives many qualifiers that we overlook.)

Until we really let God be God, and let him work in the lives of people in HIS timing, (which may take years), we will fail to comprehend related doctrines.

The names of His children are written in the Book since before time. At what point and through what circumstances his Spirit gives them HIS life is a process between God and his child.

Personally, I am reluctant to use such words as salvation, saved, or born again because, really, they have been redefined through chronic misuse.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/6/29 8:03Profile





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