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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : jehovas witness

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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 jehovas witness

i meet often people from the watchtower jehovas witness people, now i talk to them alot and now i need some help, i need bibleverses on the triunity of god or verses that i can use when i talk whit them.
So if you can give me some verses that i can study and if you can help me out im much grateful.
Now i know they are trying to convert me but i pray god will use me to turn it on them and they themself will be truly saved and born of god , that they may have their eyes opened to the truth. So pray for me please.

gods peace to all of you
christian


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2006/6/16 9:04Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2729
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: jehovas witness

You may find the following item from Greg Koukl helpful in this matter...

DEITY OF CHRIST

My purpose is to answer the Arian challenge by giving an airtight, scriptural proof for the deity of Jesus Christ. This technique is so simple you should be able to sketch it out on a napkin from memory the next time someone knocks on your door.

Remember, you don't have to master every counter-argument to every verse thrown at you. All you need is one unequivocal textual proof to make your case. Here it is. It comes from the Gospel of John.

Most discussions of this nature focus initially on John 1:1. It says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." That's the way your Bible reads. But the Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation renders the verse this way: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

The heated discussion that follows is almost never productive. Don't waste your time wrestling with Greek grammar neither of you understand. Just drop down two verses. Verse three says, "All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." The NWT is virtually the same: All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

Have your visitor read the verse out loud. Then take out a napkin or a piece of scratch paper and draw a large box. Explaining that this box represents everything that exists. Run a line right through the middle of the box, dividing everything that exists into two categories.

On the left side write "all things that never came into being," that is, all things that exist but have never been created. Ask your friend, "What goes in that box?" If he says "God" he got the right answer. God is the only thing that exists that has never been created. God alone is eternal and uncreated. Put the word "God" in the left-hand side of your box.

Label the right side "all things that came into being," that is, all created things. Write "all created things" there. Everything in this box was created through Jesus, according to verse three. Ask your friend if he understands that. Now write "created through Jesus" outside the box and run an arrow to the right side.

Take a moment to point out to your guest how this illustration is structured. The larger box includes everything there is, was or ever will be. Each particular existent falls into one of two categories: created or not created.

According to the law of excluded middle either a thing was created or it wasn't created--there is no third option--so the categories are all-encompassing. According to the law of non-contradiction a thing can't be both created and not created, so the categories are mutually exclusive. Any particular thing has to be one or the other. It's very simple.

Next you're going to determine what category Jesus belongs in. Take a coin out of your pocket. Tell your guest this coin represents Jesus Christ. Hand him the coin and ask him to place Jesus in the category where He belongs.

The first impulse of a Jehovah's Witness, of course, is to place Jesus in the category of "all things that came into being" because that's what their theology dictates. In keeping with the teaching of Arius in the early fourth century, there was a time "when the Word was not." Jesus was the first created being and everything else was created by Jehovah through Jesus.

But John 1:3 doesn't allow that option. Look at the wording carefully. John says, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being," or in the NWT,"...and apart from him not even one thing came into existence" (emphasis mine).

John says the same thing two different ways for emphasis and clarity: everything that ever came into being owes its existence to Jesus, who caused it all to happen. If Jesus caused all created things to come into existence, then He must have existed before all created things came into existence. Therefore, the Word could not have been created.

In other words, if Jesus created everything that has come into being, and Jesus also came into being (as they contend), then Jesus created Himself. He would have to exist as Creator before He existed as a created thing, which is absurd. Therefore, Jesus can't be placed in the square labeled, "all things that came into being."

Just a side note. Much is made of the Greek word dia, translated "by" in the first phrase, but can also be translated "through." But it makes no difference whether all things were created "by" Jesus or "through" Jesus with Jehovah as the agency (as the Witnesses suggest). The point is that in either case Jesus is existing before the creation of all things that ever came into being.

So, the coin can't be placed on the right. At this point your visitor may want to place Jesus somewhere on the paper outside the larger box. But, as we've seen, you can't do that. These categories are all-encompassing and mutually exclusive; there's no "place" outside to put Him. Everything goes on one side of the larger box or the other.

If Jesus can't be placed on the right side with created things, then He must go on the left with uncreated things, identifying Jesus as the uncreated Creator. Jesus is God.


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Ron Halverson

 2006/6/16 9:37Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2653
Nottingham, England

 Re: jehovas witness

From my experience, when dealing with Jehovah witnesses, I speak to them about hell. Why? They get scared, convicted, and leave. They will stick around and talk about anything in the Bible, as long as you don't mention hell. Oh, they will talk about hell and say it is only the grave. They will say Jesus went to hell, meaning the grave. But then show them the book of Revelation and mention the lake of fire and they will say it is only a parable, or some other excuse. Show them that it is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgement. How can you be judged after you are dead if the grave is the end of our lives? It isn't. They will say, I can't believe a loving God would send someone to such a terrible place. However, don't reason with them. They will refer to their reasoning book, that is not the Bible, it is just their man made interpretation of scripture. And seek godly advice from other Christians. Study the scriptures with other believers. You don't have to win them to Christ, or win any discussion. If you do, great! The thing is to show them where you stand in accordance with scripture and that no weapon formed against you will prosper. God bless.

 2006/6/16 12:02Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

REV 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


REV 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely



REV 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

REV 1:18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


my question is: Why was Jehovah god alive, dead, and then alive for evermore? Who is this talking about?

JESUS

This gets them everytime, because it reads just as well in their translation. I guess they forgot to change that.




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Matt Kroelinger

 2006/6/16 12:18Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: jehovas witness

well i found some scriptures...
Rev 7:15 Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

they say this will be on earth as i understod the man i was speaking to but clearly we will be in heaven

Heb 8:1 Now a summary over the things being said: We have such a High Priest, who sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty IN HEAVEN,
Heb 8:2 Minister of the Holy of Holies, and of the true tabernacle which the Lord pitched, and not man.


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/6/16 13:49Profile
RyanFishel
Member



Joined: 2005/12/11
Posts: 6


 Re:

I really like Inid's recommendation on bringing up the reality of hell. The same with Mormons, you can bring that up with them also to help them see the inconsistent teachings within there church and at the same time minister to them as an unbeleiver.
Hypothetically, if I was Satan I'd make religions that tried to keep up Christian external morality and convince people that the realities of hell don't exist. It's a winning combination to feel like a "good person" and feel as though you are pushing a very "tolerant" & "peaceable" religious view. Very deceptive and very effective... Satan does truly come as an angel of light to decieve.

 2006/6/16 17:19Profile
RyanFishel
Member



Joined: 2005/12/11
Posts: 6


 oh and a quick note

If you find you are talking about the trinity, then you know that they are playing offensively and taking the attacks. You can play defensive with a few scriptures, but better to get off the topic quick and get to the message of the cross, grace not works & hell. Just speak of Christ as you know who He is throughout the conversation, just talk normally... as a Christian.

Your quick defensive verses can be something like this [but be sure and more on]:

1 Corinthians 3:16 -Spirit of God in man

Galatians 2:20; 4:6 -Spirit of Christ in man

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 -Holy Spirit in man

Now you look at yourself... and say to them... So what is in me? I am born-again of the Spirit that Jesus spoke of, the same Spirit that descended on pentacost at the birth of the Church.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring the Father and the Son unto us...
I have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in me, but if they are not also all the same.. then it is getting a little bit crowded in me... isn't it? Crowded in here all 3 of them (sarcastic), or maybe you know the Risen One? Risen in you? 3 in 1.

Quote:

RyanFishel wrote:
I really like Inid's recommendation on bringing up the reality of hell. The same with Mormons, you can bring that up with them also to help them see the inconsistent teachings within there church and at the same time minister to them as an unbeleiver.
Hypothetically, if I was Satan I'd make religions that tried to keep up Christian external morality and convince people that the realities of hell don't exist. It's a winning combination to feel like a "good person" and feel as though you are pushing a very "tolerant" & "peaceable" religious view. Very deceptive and very effective... Satan does truly come as an angel of light to decieve.

 2006/6/16 17:34Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re: jehovas witness

In street preaching we have people calling JW's actually christians....they say "these christians bug us to death".... I try to tell them they are not christians! So sad that society doesnt know the difference.

As Ravenhill used to say: JW's are hells witness'.


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Brent

 2006/6/16 17:44Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
If Jesus can't be placed on the right side with created things, then He must go on the left with uncreated things, identifying Jesus as the uncreated Creator. Jesus is God



The Lord Jesus goes in the middle on the line which one half of the Coin on the Uncreated side and one half going on the other "created" side.

The Lord JEsus as the Eternal Word is the Eternal God, the ETernal Only begotton Son of God.

The Lord Jesus as a Man took on created humanity. He was born in the created womb of created Mary and derives His created humanity from Her. He partook of flesh and blood, that is created human flesh and blood.

That all things came into being through Him as God is followed by, "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory...

In HIs humanity he grew, he lived a human life, he ate, he learned, the suffered, and He died and was resurrected. His humanity was not eternal, but was created humanity. But in resurrectin His humanity is glorified and transfigured by His divine Life and He is forever both God and Man.

The Lord Jesus is fully God and fully Man. He is the God/Man. And so the Lord JEsus is the eternal union of the Uncreated ETernal God with Created humanity.

Graftedbranch



 2006/6/20 11:50Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Testimonies

Dear hmmmmmm hmmmmm,

What I found most helpful in understanding the life of those in the Jehovah's Witnesses is the personal testimonies of those who were once part of the Organisation. Doctrinal arguments tend to lead in ever increasing circles, and the truth is nobody was ever argued into the Kingdom.

Try this link: The testimony of Cookie Claffy

In His service,
Aeryck


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Eric John Sawyer

 2006/6/20 15:34Profile





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