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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Pleading the Blood?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Would it be true to say, then, that Paul's references to the shedding of His blood for the remission of sins, carries the same quality of total outpouring, even though the blood He actually shed was not His entire circulating volume, nor did it cause His death?


Yes, but you're missing the point. His perfect life poured out in His death was 'Godwards' not manwards, nor devilwards, nor demon-wards. God's word to the Israelites was 'when I see the blood I will pass over you'. Christ's death was penal and substitutionary. His death was our propitiation and the propitiation is made to the offended party.

It is a variation on another theme. Modern evangelicalism speaks of 'having accepted Christ'. The real issue is that God has 'accepted Christ' as the perfect legal satisfaction for the sins or the world and is now both 'just and the justifier of him that believes on Christ'.

Isaiah's words capture the idea.
Quote:
“And in that day thou shalt say, O Lord, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.”
(Is 12:1-2 KJVS)

Christ's life poured out in death ie the blood of the cross was in order to turn away God's anger. It never had any other application.

I am not sure why you surmise that the 'entire circulating volume' was not poured out. This was always the way with sacrifices and slaughter for human consumption in the OT. This is why they were not allowed things 'strangled' because such a death did not allow the blood to drain away.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/6/21 9:50Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

This whole thing is just completely absurd and grevious...

Quote:
Ron (Philologos) & others on this thread not only see no value in the blood, they consider it to be akin to amulets and magic spells and hocus pokus.



There is no scripture anywhere that makes even a hint of application to this idea of [i]pleading[/i] ... The point of the matter is that there is no value in [i]pleading[/i] it as such. What difference is there in this and in "naming and claiming", in "binding Satan" or any other presumption? They are but notions, whatever the intent and motivation for them ... These things leave that squirming, sinking sense of spirit to hear. IF one has the gift of healing or of prophecy (expressing Gods thought)what has become of the simplicity of the words expressed ... "Rise up and walk"?

That pages of explanation that are needed to defend or extrapolate this ... Isn't that telling in itself?

What has become of the simplicity of just praying and asking, of faith and trust that we would need such notions of pleading anything? Ought we not to be [i]appealing[/i] to the Lord for those things which ...

Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

There is absolutely nothing inherent, nor any "power" in pleading such things. It is the equivalent of Christian Hocus-Pokus and absolutely unnecessary.


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Mike Balog

 2006/6/21 10:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron (Philologos) & others on this thread not only see no value in the blood, they consider it to be akin to amulets and magic spells and hocus pokus.


Can you really believe this? This thread is not about 'the blood' it is about 'pleading the blood'. To say that I see no value in the blood is a gross misrepresentation. It is [u]not[/u] the 'blood' which has no value but 'pleading the blood'.


Quote:
We have not heard about the miracles of healing and restoration from those that criticize pleading the blood, that pray for others without it, and the miracles of healing and salvation that they have experienced, and witnessed with their own eyes.

That would be a good thing to hear.


If you think I am foolish enough to enter into such a competition you further misunderstand the nature of this conversation.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/6/21 10:30Profile









 Re:

Stever responds to Philologos:

When we plead the blood, we are symbolically applying the blood. When we anoint ourselves and others with oil, we are physically applying oil to our bodies, which is symbolical in that the Holy Spirit is represented by the oil. We are following the example of what Paul tells us to do in the New Testament, as well as what took place in the Old Testament in regards to the sanctification of Priests.

When a priest was sanctified, the blood was applied to the right ear, the right thumb, and the right big toe. The reason was symbolic in that now the Priest would hear the word of God (blood applied to the right earlobe), perform the works of God (blood applied to the right thumb) and walk with God (blood applied to the right big toe). Also, oil was poured out over his head, symbolizing the Holy Spirit as being UPON him.


All of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ should find nothing akin to magic or "hoku Pokus" in pleading the blood, or even the anointing with oil that takes place when we are praying for others.


Consecration of the Priests—Aaron and his sons:

Exodus 29

1. And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office: take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish,
2. And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them.
3. And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams.
4. And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
5. And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:
6. And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and put the holy crown upon the mitre.
7. Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and anoint him.
8. And thou shalt bring his sons, and put coats upon them.
9. And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons.
10. And thou shalt cause a bullock to be brought before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the bullock.
11. And thou shalt kill the bullock before the Lord, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
12. And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
13. And thou shalt take all the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul that is above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and burn them upon the altar.
14. But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
15. Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.
16. And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
17. And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.
18. And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the Lord: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
19. And thou shalt take the other ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.
20. Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the TIP OF THE RIGHT EAR of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, AND UPON THE THUMB OF THEIR RIGHT HAND, AND UPON THE GREAT TOE OF THEIR RIGHT FOOT, AND SPRINKLE THE BLOOD UPON THE ALTAR ROUND ABOUT.
21. And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, AND SPRINKLE IT UPON AARON, AND UPON HIS GARMENTS, AND UPON HIS SONS, AND UPON THE GARMENTS OF HIS SONS WITH HIM: AND HE SHALL BE HALLOWED, AND HIS GARMENTS, AND HIS SONS, AND HIS SONS' GARMENTS WITH HIM.
22. Also thou shalt take of the ram the fat and the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and the right shoulder; for it is a ram of consecration:
23. And one loaf of bread, and one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer out of the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the Lord:
24. And thou shalt put all in the hands of Aaron, and in the hands of his sons; and shalt wave them for a wave offering before the Lord.
25. And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour before the Lord: it is an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

Leviticus 8:13-36—the Atonement
13. And Moses brought Aaron's sons, and put coats upon them, and girded them with girdles, and put bonnets upon them; as the Lord commanded Moses.
14. And he brought the bullock for the sin offering: and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the bullock for the sin offering.
15. And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it.
16. And he took all the fat that was upon the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and their fat, and Moses burned it upon the altar.
17. But the bullock, and his hide, his flesh, and his dung, he burnt with fire without the camp; as the Lord commanded Moses.
18. And he brought the ram for the burnt offering: and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram.
19. And he killed it; and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.
20. And he cut the ram into pieces; and Moses burnt the head, and the pieces, and the fat.
21. And he washed the inwards and the legs in water; and Moses burnt the whole ram upon the altar: it was a burnt sacrifice for a sweet savour, and an offering made by fire unto the Lord; as the Lord commanded Moses.
22. And he brought the other ram, the ram of consecration: and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram.
23. And he slew it; and Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot.
24. And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.
25. And he took the fat, and the rump, and all the fat that was upon the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and their fat, and the right shoulder:
26. And out of the basket of unleavened bread, that was before the Lord, he took one unleavened cake, and a cake of oiled bread, and one wafer, and put them on the fat, and upon the right shoulder:
27. And he put all upon Aaron's hands, and upon his sons' hands, and waved them for a wave offering before the Lord.
28. And Moses took them from off their hands, and burnt them on the altar upon the burnt offering: they were consecrations for a sweet savour: it is an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
29. And Moses took the breast, and waved it for a wave offering before the Lord: for of the ram of consecration it was Moses' part; as the Lord commanded Moses.
30. And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
31. And Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and there eat it with the bread that is in the basket of consecrations, as I commanded, saying, Aaron and his sons shall eat it.
32. And that which remaineth of the flesh and of the bread shall ye burn with fire.
33. And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you.
34. As he hath done this day, so the Lord hath commanded to do, to make an atonement for you.
35. Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the Lord, that ye die not: for so I am commanded.
36. So Aaron and his sons did all things which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever concludes:

Of what "value" did applying the actual blood of sacrificed animals to the right earlobe, the right big finger,and the right big toe have here? Of what value did the anointing of Oil over the Priests head have here?

These were all commands of God.


xxxxxxxxxxxx


God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/21 11:01
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
bro Ron said:

Quote:
Yes, but you're missing the point. His perfect life poured out in His death was 'Godwards' not manwards, nor devilwards, nor demon-wards. God's word to the Israelites was 'when I see the blood I will pass over you'. Christ's death was penal and substitutionary. His death was our propitiation and the propitiation is made to the offended party.



the word says that His blood was shed for the remission of sins and there is no mention of it beng shed for anything else. the disciples (at least as far as i can tell, which may not be very far) never did plead the blood of Christ for anything other than God's mercy/forgiveness (to which it seems to me the blood primarily applies. However bro Stever did mention that in some cases (job being an exception) sin is tied to illness and forgiveness brings about healing. it seems to me though that these things are intimately related, the blood of Christ, which allows us to be cleansed and therefore go before the Father in all boldness and asking Him and receiving.

bro Stever said:

Quote:
We have not heard about the miracles of healing and restoration from those that criticize pleading the blood, that pray for others without it, and the miracles of healing and salvation that they have experienced, and witnessed with their own eyes.



i've not seen this application in scripture, perhaps the healings and miracles you've seen and been involved in have more to do with obedience to what the Lord called you to do. it seems to me for the Lord to do such, there must be an obedience which goes beyond simply saying things, a depth of obedience which stems from the throne of God which is manifest in us to His glory.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/21 13:29Profile









 Christ's life poured out in death ie the blood of the cross was in order to turn away God's anger??

Christ's life poured out in death ie the blood of the cross was in order to turn away God's anger??

Can you back this statement up with scripture?

Does John 3:16 teach this?

 2006/6/21 14:24









 Re: Pleading the blood?


philologos said

Quote:
[b]I am not sure why you surmise that the 'entire circulating volume' was not poured out. This was always the way with sacrifices and slaughter for human consumption in the OT[/b]. This is why they were not allowed things 'strangled' because such a death did not allow the blood to drain away.

This is how I understand these things at this point in time.....

I have heard it preached, is one reason - that those being crucified died very slowly, usually, and not from loss of blood directly - more from exhaustion and dehydration. The hands and feet would not bleed enough to [i]cause[/i] death.

The death of animals you describe, is effected by severing a large blood vessel. If this happened to the Lord when the spear was thrust into His side, it explains why blood was able to come out then - [i]after[/i] He had died.

Then there is the fact that in order to speed up the dying process, it was [i]usual[/i] to break the legs of the victims who had survived the day, as was done to the thieves. (John 19:26 - 37)

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

If the Lord had shed [i]all[/i] His blood and died because of blood loss, He would not have had the strength and mental competence to speak to John, to drink, to cry out, and to dismiss His spirit all so near the time He died.

I believe the shedding of His blood, both before and after His death are symbolic. His death - the FACT that He died is [i]not[/i] symbolic. It is utterly real and essential to the restoration of our relationship with God, which is also not symbolic. It is utterly real and essential for our salvation.

He IS the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. The [i]meaning[/i] of His blood, shed for the remission of our sins, works because the Father has accepted His sacrifice once, for all.

The meaning of Christ taking the vinegar - the bad wine - is symbolic of His taking our sin and the sins of the whole world - it was 'the cup' He had to drink. We now are asked to take good bread and good wine to remember His death - His death by which we now can partake of His life, [i]if[/i] we understand His death. (We do not eat His real Flesh, in the same way as at the Passover, and the priests, ate those sacrifices).

The fact that Jesus was in complete control of His body, right up until He died, is an example to all who would suffer for Him. I realise this last is drifting off topic, but He showed what a [i]man[/i] could do, in resisting temptation in the most desperate hours of His [u]life[/u].

This is why I asked what I did about the comparason with His [i]tasting[/i] death. It seems biblically reasonable to say that when He shed His blood - some blood - His life was [u]as completely poured out[/u], as in the way as He [i]completely[/i] died, [i]completely[/i] partook of death for us, and [i]completely[/i] destroyed death - by a 'taste' of it.

 2006/6/21 16:14
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: Christ's life poured out in death ie the blood of the cross was in order to

bro freecd
God's anger directed toward us for our sins, Christ's blood atones for us so we are covered by it and God doesn't see our sins. the reason why Christ's blood had to be shed was because nothing else would suffice.

as this pertains to John 3:16, God so loving the world that He gave His son so that whoever believes in Him will not die but have eternal life, God loved the world despite our sin and, the just penalty for sin would be eternity in hell. God's love was/is so great that He gave His son to atone for our sins, so averting the necessary punishment thereof and reconciling us to Him.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/21 17:13Profile









 God's anger

Can you please provide some scriptures to back this up?

 2006/6/21 18:17
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

"Of what "value" did applying the actual blood of sacrificed animals to the right earlobe, the right big finger,and the right big toe have here? Of what value did the anointing of Oil over the Priests head have here?"

Steve, do you do this now? This is all outward and has nothing to do with the blood Jesus Shed at the Cross. Using the blood as a pleading to get what you want from God or as anything other that the only atonement God could accept for the sin of the World is hypocritical and makes a mockery of this taking away of sin. The blood does not cover our sin, that is what the blood of animals did. The blood of Christ took away sin and cleansed every person that believes in its atonement. The Blood is the life of the flesh and if you want to plead it you are using it to the flesh. It is no longer the blood we use to be what God has given us to be, it is Christ Himself that is what God see's and uses as His conformation in the believer, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Pleading the blood is just a fleshly thing that puts another arrow in the hole in Gods Heart every time it is used outside of The complete atonement for the whole world mentioned. Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is no spirit in the blood.

This is a pretty serious prayer of Paul for himself, why did he not ask the people to plead the blood for him. Rom 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in [your] prayers to God for me;

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/6/21 21:22Profile





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