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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Opposition From Everyone

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Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA


I was merely repeating the fact that I do not acknowledge sin to the extent of which I should.

Do drug dealers, rapists, murderers, prostitutes ever have a hard time coming to Christ ?

No... why is that ? Why is the repeating trend that the 'scum of the earth' surrender their lives so easily and willfully ?

I am convinced that it is because they know the state of which they are in, completely lost and without hope, completely wretched and thoroughly filthy.

'I have have found by long experience that the severest threatenings of the law of God have a prominent place in leading men to Christ. They MUST see themselves LOST before they will cry for MERCY; they'll not escape danger UNTIL they see it.' - A.B. Earl

I apologize that your method of grace, love, accept Christ and it is done doesn't work for me. I still have a strong feeling that my heart must be broken before I can have any dealings with Christ Jesus. I am not concerned about Jesus at the moment... I'm only concerned about how I am @ enmity with the Holy God. Jesus came to heal the broken hearted. He says that only the sick need a physician. I am not under that category at the moment.

As John Wesley states... 90% law and 10% grace... I've still yet to work through the law and bring myself to understand how lost and condemned I really am.

I know in my mind that I am sick. But I don't feel it. The problem is, how do I get this KNOWLEDGE into my HEART.

I'm apologize that I've grown up in church my entire life, and my heart is comparable to Pharoah's I believe. If I could become a Christian so easily, I would, but I have found throughout these past couple of months, I cannot. I yet lack utter brokenness, I've yet to cry mercy from within.

[i]'When you first started this abasement of yourself I thought you were being honest. Well with your last post I can see you are not and only set on your own self worth and want God to be servant in your petty manipulation of words and thoughts in deceiving others to believe you are sincere. You don't need any training in sin, it is apparent. I will still pray for you in the hopes you will someday see your death on the Cross of Christ and become a child of God. Every knee will bow and yours will be one of them, as mine will also.'[/i]

Can you really read my inmost being? Can you honestly tell me that you know me that well, good enough to tell me that I am only out for my self worth, and want God to be my servant? Are you God? May God break you. I wish to retaliate towards you and say that it is because of people like you, many do not enter into the fullness of Christ.

I honestly would rather you not pray for me. But if you must, pray that God would break me.

Phillip, let me tell you something. I wish to go out and evangelize, I want to go out and do the Lord's will. Do you have any idea of how many people I wish to talk to about God ? So many kids back in my youth group back @ home. So many kids @ the church where my older brother is pastoring. So many young adults here on campus who don't know the sincere word of God. All the adults in any congregation in these dead cemetaries we call church, I wish to speak to them.

But oh, how I will blush when they ask me how I came to know the Lord. 'What is your testimony, why should we pay any attention to you?'

What will I say? That I said, 'Jesus I believe.' And I became born again?

Blasphemy. I am not willing to lie like that. Sure I can preach like all these dead pastors do. I can come up with a message to make them think about some stuff, but there will be no movement of God in their lives. Why? Because I lack. I will not step out in God's name without anything short of a baptism of the Holy Ghost. I will continue my search, whether I do so in your contempt or not, I really do not care.


'Christ had said to him: "Thou canst not follow me now" (John 13:36). Peter was not in a fit state to follow Christ, because he had not been brought to an end of himself. He did not know himself, and he therefore could not follow Christ.

But when he went out and wept bitterly, then came the great change. Christ previously said to him: "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren" (Luke 22:32). Here is the point Where Peter was converted from self to Christ.

But remember, before Christ could fill Peter with the Holy Spirit and make a new man of him, he had to go out and weep bitterly; he had to be humbled.'
- Andrew Murray - Absolute Surrender

Sam Yoon

 2006/6/18 2:49Profile

Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA


Hmm... reading through Peter's Repentance...

I'm finding quite a lot of things... a revelation perhaps ?

We shall see where this leads me...

Sam Yoon

 2006/6/18 4:52Profile

 Re: Opposition from Everyone

Dear Sam,

You know, you have begun this process in public, but, you do not have to finish it in public.... although eventually, when you are right through into the glory with God in which He desires you join Him, it would be good if you come back and find this thread, and simply tell us you're 'sorted'. (I don't know if you have 'sorted' T-shirts in the US, but, someone had the idea of making the 't' into a cross, and printing the word across the shirt. It's a simple testimony to the efficacy of the death of Jesus for the sinner wearing the shirt.)

Phillip was on to something. I've known Phillip a long time here and in another forum, and I've never seen him post like that to anyone. You are privileged to have drawn out his fatherliness towards you, and from long experience of knowing the Lord's dealings with his own soul (and being a father in real life). Listen to him with as much honesty as your heart can muster. He was not being mean. He was telling you some things you need to hear.... God is more patient than Phillip sounded. Be sure God will wait for you... He will.

Phillip said:

Now you sound like a small child that is having a tantrum because he did not get his way.

Sam, you were used to living in the public eye at church. Whether you were aware of it or not, you were brought up to live to a false standard. Maybe you are used to getting your own way, because it was easier for parents who had other responsibilities, to quieten you without the kind of discipline which would have enabled you to find God sooner. On the other hand, maybe you are used to having to stamp your feet (literally and figuratively) to get any attention at all. Or maybe, there is a complicated combination of both those ways of living, depending on what you needed. Either way, you are at a watershed now. God will not jump to your command, and yet, you still need someone looking after your heart's needs. We all do. And we all have to work through the process of making choices for God - for God's will to be worked out in our lives.

This comes down to a series of 'yes' answers, in the end. Personally, I took the 'no' anwers to the limit. Like Phillip, I don't recommend it, but, why should you take our word for it? Maybe you are stubborn and thick-headed enough by now, for God to know there is no other way to get your full attention. You already have His attention - as Jesse Morrell (Lazarus the street preacher on this site) calls it The Audience of One.... the only Audience that matters.

He is the one you need to bounce off. He is speaking you, within your limited understanding of what He can do for you, and the theology with which you are familiar. If you are genuinely open to hear from Him, and ask Him to show you what you need to 'see' next, to move towards Him, He will lead you into eternal life.

Yes, it is important to recognise the place of Jesus Christ in all this, but, His work is to bring you to the Father.

Think of when Jesus cleansed the temple. He was already in there, showing the money-changers that they had turned His house of prayer into a den of theives. This can be a picture of the human life or heart. Jesus is already in there, perhaps, showing you what you're really like. Take a good look at what He shines His light upon. Focus. Think about each issue carefully, and tell Him where you are with it, honestly. He loves honesty. He can't abide liars. They will not be in the kingdom of heaven with Him.

You may not realise how common is your malaise. You are no more special than I am, but God values your specialness and intends to make you shine uniquely for Him, if you will let Him help you [i]see[/i] (first) and deal with, [i]the imperfections[/i] which rob Him of His image in you.

You may not be a Finney, in the way God wants to deal with you. Use his system for what you can gain from it, but, God is an original thinker, and He loves to see His Originality in His children. He will want to bring out your originality, for His glory. This is where you have to be willing to go it alone, and leave the safety of the pack, and of looking the way you think everyone else in church might want to see you..... to catch onto His eagle's wings, and let Him bear you to Himself...... and find out who you really are in Him.

Don't make the mistake the children of Israel made, in getting only so far, and then wishing they were back in Egypt. I know there are two ways of looking at the wilderness experience - that they really did want Egypt more than God, and that's why they died, or, that all the idols we bring out of Egypt with us, have to die in the desert, before we can enter the promised land. I hope you go for the latter, in which every place that the sole of your foot treads on, will be yours, as long as you keep pressing forward, and driving out the enemy from before you. (Exodus and Joshua, which I hope you have read previously. If not, please read them now, and get some good biblical imagery into your thinking.)

 2006/6/18 5:16

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776

 Re: The locked room in the heart

Wow! Sam, you sure have been persevering! I'm just going to share what I see so far. You said earlier:

Yes... I've counted the cost of what it will take
...What will it take... must I go out and sin in order for myself to know how sinful I am?

We have a tendency to hold a very narrow view of sin – only behaviors that we are consciously aware of. There are a host of sins that our society including our church never talk about or even consider sin. So, when we think we have counted the cost, we may hardly have begun to know the cost.

Someone earlier mentioned:
You will not be saved from your sins, you will be saved from Gods' wrath.
He will make you not accountable for your sins.

This statement is one that I strongly disagree with. Through Christ we can indeed be saved FROM our sins – those bondages that keep us from moving on in his freedom.
I feel that I haven't sinned against my father. ...I'm a zombie .... 'I Want Anguish' is truly what I want. I want to feel the pain for my open rebellion against God. I want to know the heart of God, as to how I've hurt and insulted His deity. My trouble is that I don't have any anguish for my sins.

Remorse and anguish, in itself is not the path to God. Judas felt so much anguish that he could not live with it. So he escaped by ending his life.
Anguish is not the path to God (in itself) Neither is even Edward’s sermon (in itself)

The path to God requires honesty. “Surely you desire truth in the inner parts” Ps. 51 “Search me, O God …. See if there is any offensive way in me…” Ps. 139:23,24

Earlier I challenged you:
So, now, I ask, who in your life do you need to let off the “hook”. Who are you angry at? Can you forgive all those who harmed you in the past, including your father, and the church in general? Are you prepared to walk into their lives with mercy, patience, and gentleness?

I noticed that you responded:
I hold no grudges against anyone... They are dead just as I am, why would I scream at a blind person,

This may be the “right” answer, yet just how honest is it? This may be a bit like telling me what you also find yourself saying to God:
I'm not as bad as you say I am,

Yet your initial testimony betrays some subtle anger:
I just recently got into an argument with my older brother who is an assistant Youth Pastor for his church. I told him not to take his youth kids to the mission field because his youth kids had no idea what it meant to be a Christian, and that they would only spread more false Christianity. My brother in turn yelled at me, and told me to get off my high horse.

Just maybe these immature kids will have their eyes opened when they experience a world other than their own.

I noticed your words:
I want to be able to repent. …I wrote down all of my sins … I've tried, but I feel no remorse for my sins …. I've yet to lay my life down... and I've come to believe its much more than a conscience decision, because I've tried that, and it doesn't work.

I remember Bill Gothard once teaching that our heart has many little compartments in it – each with a door. As we move along in repentance, we open one door after the other and surrender the contents to God. Yet sometimes we feel no victory. That is because God is after that one door that we keep tightly closed – it is the one door that he knows is keeping us in bondage. Did you notice earlier that Dorcas was gently knocking on one of your ‘doors”?

I think, probably a pastor's son has had plenty of unnoticed anguish, (apart from the specific matter you mentioned), and maybe it this is a useful time to begin to take stock of what it cost you to grow up in a family where your needs were not always your father's most pressing priority.

Take careful notice of her words:
…. unless you know how angry you are and why, true forgiveness is not readily accessible.

Indeed, when anger is buried long enough (past sunset) we no longer have access to it. We become numb to it, along with many other emotions. It doesn’t help when anger is considered a sin, and we are not taught to process our anger properly. Instead, we are encouraged to deny it, and just “behave” properly.

Dorcas adds:
I feel that part of your sense of deadness, is in fact, numbness, and while you may not need to 'feel' all the pain which that numbness is concealing - which is God's grace to you, to enable you to pull through - it does need to be acknowledged, by you, and you should begin to understand what it means. This is where anger comes in, although you may feel completely unemotional at the moment....

She is right. Numbness is given by God’s grace to those who have been deeply wounded, because it would have be unbearable to feel the full brunt of the anguish. But at some point God works in our lives to set us free from those defences, and move us towards maturity in him. And that process is never neat and tidy. Thankfully the Spirit doesn’t reveal all our hurts, pain, and sins at once. If he did, we couldn’t survive.

God I know you can save me... what's holding You back... what's holding me back... what's going on ?

Nothing’s holding God back except those areas that you have made out “out of bounds” (though, unconsciously).

Much of our wrestling with God is us trying to hold those doors shut and he is trying to open them. This can be an exhausting time. But hang in there. It's great that you are not settling for quick-fix solutions.

Can you accept Christ’s yoke – rest in his promised forgiveness, and TRUST him to get to the finishing line?



 2006/6/18 7:39Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Prayer

You know, you have begun this process in public, but, you do not have to finish it in public....

Had a similar thought yesterday. This may be the best counsel to date Sam. The prayer closet is where you must go. Take the scriptures with you, in your heart, in your head, before your eye's, however and in whatever combination.

This is your hour of crisis Sam, and if we don't stop offering up more suggestions I fear we will just be getting in the way of what the Lord is doing.

Pray Sam, [i]Pray![/i]
Listen more than speak.
Pray yourself into silence.
Read s l o w l y.

If you must have more conviction read Jeremiah, hover over the difficult things ... More suggestions, goodness ... I think we need to stop giving them to you, they may be worthless, glean what you may and ignore the rest.

Sam, there may be but one thing the Lord is asking of you and one thing you are unwilling to let go of.... It is not for public consumption, not now and maybe not ever. You may need to repent of your repentance ... Brother, when I finally came to an end of myself it was an alternating and simultaneous "yes\no" ... "Yes, Lord...", "No, I am not ready..." (To give up my sin, though I knew that I really did want to deep down) Back in forth it went, the natural and the spiritual at war. To look back now, even in the paradoxical strangeness of it all ... 'Instantly' nothing changed and yet everything changed, it wasn't until quite a long time afterward that I was able to look [i]back[/i] and realize just how profound a moment it truly was.

It was an inception for sure, a beginning and a continuation, not a 'conclusion'. Yours will be uniquely yours and that only can be known by yourself and the Lord.

Something just dawned on me ...

Has it occurred to you that there is the distinct possibility that you have already been accepted and you are now fighting against it?

Don't answer here until you have answered it with the Lord.

May He smite the stubbornness right out of you.

Mike Balog

 2006/6/18 10:32Profile

Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA


'What is the necessary consequence of this (Fall of Man) ?

It is this:

There could then have been no such thing as faith in God thus loving the world, giving his only Son for us men, and for our salvation.

There could have been no such thing as faith in the Son of God, as "loving us and giving himself for us."

There could have been no faith in the Spirit of God, as renewing the image of God in our hearts, as raising us from the death of sin unto the life of righteousness.

Indeed the whole privilege of justification by faith could have had no existence; there could have been no redemption in the blood of Christ; neither could Christ have been "made of God unto us," either "wisdom, righteousness. sanctification" or "redemption."'

-God's Love to Fallen Man - John Wesley

I've never quite thought about it that way... God allowing us humans to fall... in order that we may come back to him willingly... although the Father knew He would have to give His only begotten Son to be cursed on a tree in order to do so...

Puts a different spin on things, dont ya reckon?

*shakes head*

God is good after all

I now understand what Paris Reidhead said about John Wesley, of how he exalted the Righteousness of God...

Now I can begin to see how offensive my sin is to God... my deliberate disobedience...

I feel the kingdom of God is drawing near.

Sam Yoon

 2006/6/18 11:30Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3691


Sam wrote: "And I respond, 'I'm not as bad as you say I am, look at what I've done for You, look at how I struggle for You... I'm not that bad...really...'

But still He asks, 'Who are you?

Job 34:31-37 Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne chastisement, I will not offend any more: That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more. Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest. Let men of understanding tell me, and let a wise man hearken unto me. Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men. For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.

When God does it we learn wisdom, the wisdom of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. When man does it we learn rebellion. Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

More of Him and less of me. Phl 3:10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death;

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In vain won't happen, God the Father will see to that.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/6/18 12:59Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


roadsign wrote:

You will not be saved from your sins, you will be saved from Gods' wrath.
He will make you not accountable for your sins.

This statement is one that I strongly disagree with. Through Christ we can indeed be saved FROM our sins – those bondages that keep us from moving on in his freedom.

Strongly disagree with? Your sins are not the things that are bringing you to hell.

God will put you there Himself for rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection. That is the only reason fo going to hell.

Being saved from the wrath of God is what we are all escaping from, [b]not our sins.[/b]

Again, our sins do not send us to hell, our sins are only the evidence that God uses against us. If our sins haven't been washed away by His atoning blood, then the evidence against us is what God uses to condemn us on the Day of Judgment.

Now then, how does God prove that evidence?
He uses His Law.

What does His Law do?
The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold His righteous standards and we are incapable to do them and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law. The Law not only shows us that we sin, it also shows us why we need to be changed most of all.

The question remains, how are we changed from within in order to accomplish the Law?

He gives us Eternal Life and that is what changes us. This is also how one knows HIM.
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000][b]Now this is eternal life:[/b] [u]that they shall be knowing You,[/u] the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]

You see, we all are born spiritually dead and therefore we are all soulish in nature. Our souls rule our physical bodies.

When we become born again, we become spiritually alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord and no longer soulish. Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner.

It is the soul that we battle everyday, who will rule? Will it be our soulish passion to walk after the flesh, or will it be our spirit, to life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death [color=990000]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color][b]Romans 8:4[/b]

That is what is meant by being a new creature in Christ: [b]2Corinth 5:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/color]

In other words, we recieve a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that we do. In these new aspects of our life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in us.

Sam Yoon:
You need to be saved in order to act saved. You are putting the cart before the horse.

You want all these character traits that will only come when you are changed from with in.
I was merely repeating the fact that I do not acknowledge sin to the extent of which I should.

You can not untill you have the Spirit of God in you.
Do drug dealers, rapists, murderers, prostitutes ever have a hard time coming to Christ?
No... why is that ? Why is the repeating trend that the 'scum of the earth' surrender their lives so easily and willfully ?

I am convinced that it is because they know the state of which they are in

You do know the state of which you, yourself, is in.

completely lost

are'nt you lost now?
Why do you think you cant [b]FIND[/b]repentance?
Do you think that you know just a bit of the way?

without hope

Do you think that you have the slightest bit of hope?

completely wretched and thoroughly filthy.

why do you think that you can not find repentance?
It is because you are completely wretched and thoroughly filthy.

tell me, how do you think you will become the way you think you need to be in order to be saved.
Listen to all the sermons you want, they will not change you or make you more repentant, Only Jesus will.

Just take HIS offer for Eternal Life and get on with it.
No need for all this stuff you are wanting, they will come with the new life.

I know in my mind that I am sick. But I don't feel it. The problem is, how do I get this KNOWLEDGE into my HEART.

Why would it being in your heart help any?
[b]Jer 17:9[/b] [color=990000]The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?[/color]
you probably have it in there already but are decieved.

 2006/6/18 16:13Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Brother Sam, It is with a tender heart that I write this. Put down the books of men, and cast yourself upon CHRIST. If others have suggested this already, then may truth be established by one or two witnesses.
These books are heaping a condemnation upon you, but is it conviction from GOD Himself, or are you trying to live to the standards of these men?
GOD created one Charles Finney, one John Wesley, and one Sam. HE has the right to dictate to you what is wrong and what needs to be repented of, not the writings of men.
I write these things because I was very much like you in that I would read these mighty men of GOD's words and then determine that I too must live as they did or certainly I was no Christian. Yet the problem here is that we are not called to live like them, but like CHRIST. So you must labour to know HIM, HIS voice, HIS words, and not the words and traditions of men. They are good, but right now in your state they are not profitable.
Read your BIBLE alone for now, and do not try to live to the LAW of man's traditions, or compare your experience with anything but CHRIST and HIS words.
I believe that HE is closer than you know, but you are not willing to let HIM forgive you. Do not look for the "feeling" of forgiveness, but in faith trust HE has forgiven you. If you confess, and repent of sins, then let them go, and rejoice that GOD for CHRIST's sake has forgiven you!!
I hope this is of some help to you.

patrick heaviside

 2006/6/18 17:14Profile

Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524



I can't agree more with your post totally. It's been in my experience,in the past, how "great' men's books threw me into confusion, burdened me excessively with their convictions, not to mention, at times, caused me to offend GOD,when I treasured what they said instead of what GOD says.

I suppose sometimes one has a tendency to take on a sense of intellectual gratification when one labors in man's works rather than GOD's WORD.

In Christ

 2006/6/18 17:47Profile

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