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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid

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Basis_Hound
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 3


 Re: on the Love of God

IronMan,

I have just today found these forums and am already fascinated by the discussions going on here.

In reading your post, I am confused about a couple of your statements:

You say: i'm not for people not being punished as the law makes provision for their crimes. this goes for anyone and everyone from the pauper to the president for noone should be exempt from the law.

And you also say: should we not witness to such people?

And you also say: brethren if i am wrong and a fool forgive me and seek the Lord to loose me from this, but i am convinced that if we were to operate in the Love of God, nothing would be out of reach. even bin-laden himself would be brought to Christ if the pure love of God were to confront him.

Based on what you have said, I have a few questions:

One: You say that you are in favor of punishing criminals. How is executing justice on a Terrorist different? The man admitted (and even gloried in) his crimes. He received the prescribed penalty.

Two: Who has said that executing a murderer means that you don't love him? I think you are answering an argument that hasn't been put forward here. Besides, if it is indeed the case that executing a murderer means that you don't love him, then God doesn't love those whom He executes (or worse, those who end up in Hell).
But we all know that God loves Everyone, so punishing a wrongdoer is clearly not at odds with loving him. Also, I would venture to say that everyone on this site would indeed have witnessed to Zarqawi, if given the chance.

Three: You seem to be saying that it is inappropriate for Christians to rejoice at justice being done.
I found this quote by the one God calls "A man after My own heart" - David in Psalm 58:10

"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked"

It is in context of rejoicing at God bringing judgement upon the wicked.

If you have a problem with Anyone alive today rejoicing that a mass murderer was stopped, please show how David was wrong here. If you cannot show how David was wrong to rejoice at the bloody death of the wicked, then you also cannot show how anyone alive today would be wrong to do so. Please keep in mind that Jesus, the Son of David, never changes and that the same Holy Spirit that inspired David inspires us today as well.

So either you must prove that God changed on something so basic as rejoicing AT (-not IN) the death of a wicked man,
or you must agree that there is validity in rejoicing in the Justice of God being made manifest.

Four: You say brethren if i am wrong and a fool forgive me and seek the Lord to loose me from this, but i am convinced that if we were to operate in the Love of God, nothing would be out of reach. even bin-laden himself would be brought to Christ if the pure love of God were to confront him.

What if Bin-Laden was confronted with the pure love of God and still rejected it? If you say this is not possible, then you are saying that Man does not have free will. In order to choose to Love God, Mankind MUST have the freedom to reject Him. One must be very careful when speaking about Moral Freedom of choice (Men and Angels) - it is the only thing in the Universe God has chosen to limit himself from ruling completely.


A final note: You must remember that Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes, it IS possible to rejoice at the death of a Murdering Madman AT THE SAME TIME AS mourning the death of a human made in the Image of God.

Have I read you correctly?
Let me know.


 2006/6/12 18:02Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: checking our motives

Hi everyone. I reading and watching this discussion move along I have been reminded of the importance of checking our motives before we act, or speak. For instance, even though our doctrine [i][b]may[/b][/i] be pure, if the reason and manner in which we bear the sword of the Spirit is [i][b]not pure[/b][/i] then are not our works disqualified, not to mention in danger of being destructive?

Blessed indeed are the [b]meek[/b], or as I understand it, those whose power is[i] under control[/i], God's control that is.

Peace be with you all in Christ


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/6/12 18:41Profile









 Re:

Basis_Hound posted to IRONMAN:

"A final note: You must remember that Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes, it IS possible to rejoice at the death of a Murdering Madman AT THE SAME TIME AS mourning the death of a human made in the Image of God."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Stever's response:

Amen, Amen, and Amen!

I totally agree, and it is nice to have you on board.

God bless,

Stever :-D

P.S. You have read correctly.

 2006/6/12 23:20
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Basis Hound
welcome to S.I!

well to your first question, i never objected to Al-Zarqawi's execution not said it wasn't justice. i just disagreed with the rejoicing over it because God doesn't rejoice over the death of a sinner. Now relief i suppose is called for but unless we also repent we will likewise perish.

again i never said that executing him meant not loving him at all, if i came across that way it was unintended. however you do bring up a good point which i was unaware of, the fact that the rejoicing may not be for the death of a man (albeit a wicked one) but for the justice of the Lord being manifest and mourn the death of a man. i thank God for that revelation!

Quote:
What if Bin-Laden was confronted with the pure love of God and still rejected it? If you say this is not possible, then you are saying that Man does not have free will. In order to choose to Love God, Mankind MUST have the freedom to reject Him. One must be very careful when speaking about Moral Freedom of choice (Men and Angels) - it is the only thing in the Universe God has chosen to limit himself from ruling completely.



if Bin-Laden was confronted with the Love of God he would not resist. do i think man has free will, yes but only in the confines of God's Sovereign will. Consider this,if we can do whatsoever we want without God having any control, He is not sovereign. nothing happens outside His will, nothing catches Him by surprise, His forknowledge of events is His determination on how they should be. our perception of what free will is, and indeed many other things eg love is warped. it is shaped mainly before we come to Christ from our flesh. That too must die on the cross if we are to be successful for Christ. We've delved into this before and i learned that i'm called to be a vessel of mercy from before the foundations of the world...better yet just read Romans 9 and some of the other epistles of Paul wherein he says you who were called from before the setting of the foundation of the earth (or something to that effect)


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Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 1:22Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

by the way bro Basis Hound you read some things correctly and others wrong.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 1:25Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren

Quote:
Hi everyone. I reading and watching this discussion move along I have been reminded of the importance of checking our motives before we act, or speak. For instance, even though our doctrine may be pure, if the reason and manner in which we bear the sword of the Spirit is not pure then are not our works disqualified, not to mention in danger of being destructive?



i think we all in some measure have neglected this most important issue :cry:


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 1:29Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: to Stever (finally)

Stever wrote to Roadsign,

Quote:
Your response would be welcomed.



I admit, Stever, that we haven’t had many conversations together, so you haven’t had a chance to know my headspace. So, I can see that some of my points could seem unbiblical. For example: You are justifiably concerned about “faith” being a mask for passivity and fatalism. This pervasive position has indeed crept under the umbrella of Christianity.

On the other hand, because our western world operates on a humanistic foundation, humanism has also infected our thinking – quite unconsciously. In other words, man, though he may take God’s name and call himself Christian, still wants to be in charge. Man must control his own destiny. And so we see countless professing Christians trying hard to follow God’s laws in their own strength (trusting in “self”), but they still really wish to be master of themselves – their own god. That’s what the Pharisees did, and we see that pervasively in our churches. It affects our entire worldview – including our view of war.

In the OT, God did indeed use nations to bring about judgment. But that was no indication that the aggressors were obedient to God. Later on they received their own judgments. In fact, God didn’t even show any favoritism to his beloved nation, Israel. Israel could not count on his protection as long as they took his name in vain (ie called themselves children of God without trusting in him)

It is worth noting that in the OT, military victories were clearly also spiritual victories. For example: Gideon and his 300. Clearly, when God goes before us, numbers are not needed, nor is the might of man. One smooth stone was enough to knock down Goliath. It was a divine victory. David was rewarded for his FAITH (in God, not himself)

Ancient Israel was to be a theocracy – a nation state under divine authority. But after their failure God’s people would no longer form a nation state. Jesus himself pointed out to Pilate that if he had come to set up an earthly kingdom, his disciples would have been fighting it. Now God’s holy “nation” includes all his TRUE followers and they are all over. Right now God is calling thousands even among our “enemy” nations. We are called to protect God’s children, and I think that we have failed to do that, because of selfish interests - like oil, land, dominance, self-preservation, etc.

Someone earlier stated that war was the only thing that stopped Hitler. I would like to suggest that war was the result of a failure to subdue him long before he ever got to where he did. For a while he was even considered a hero by the Brits because of his ant-Russian stand. Also, the USA delayed involvement because of conflicting interests. I’m not a historian, so I refrain from too many details. But, keep in mind that history books are written by the victors. God has an entirely different perspective.

My parents were in Holland during occupation. My paternal grandfather had a strong faith in God and lived it with all his strength. He trusted in God, and he and his family risked their lives over and over again to hide Jews and others who were in danger. They provided food and clothing (provided in miraculous ways). God spared them many times from certain death. My predecessors fought with the weapon of faith. And oh.. the blessings even down the generations!


Quote:
surely there is nothing that can't be accomplished in this Love for we are indeed more than conquerors through He that Loved us.


Romans 8: 38 is not speaking to those who have some level of supremacy. It is speaking to God’s children – those who have nothing in themselves, no power, no influence, no status, no wealth. Clearly, victory over the enemy is not accomplished by the might of man – but by the power of Christ – and that happens through him ruling in the hearts of man.

A recent thread pointed out two kinds of fire: The fire of God or the fire of hell.
God’s fire always points towards mercy. It is redemptive. It leads people to heaven. Fire from hell leads people to hell. It takes vengeance into its own hands – it destroys. One fire is life; one is death. One is “unauthorized fire” , one is given by God.

Which fire are we using in our efforts to conquer evil? Which fire is burning in our bones?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/6/13 8:46Profile
Basis_Hound
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 3


 Re:

You said:

Quote:
if Bin-Laden was confronted with the Love of God he would not resist.



I agree, and that is precicely the reason that God does not confront those whom He has forseen will reject Him. Namely, to preserve their free will. Otherwise, freewill is an illusion and nobody need go to hell because God could just confront everyone and we would all choose Him. I think it is one of the chief agonies of God that his own creation chooses to reject him, but in order to have the possibility of voluntary Love, there must be the option of voluntary rejection.

You said:

Quote:
do i think man has free will, yes but only in the confines of God's Sovereign will. Consider this,if we can do whatsoever we want without God having any control, He is not sovereign.



What if God's will is that we "do whatsoever we want"?

The "confines of God's Sovereign will" include man's free choice; it is God's will that we choose our own destiny, therefore any choice we make is within God's Sovereign will. There is no contradiction.

Romans 1 & 2 say several times "God gave them over" As C.S. Lewis said "There will be two kinds of people in the end: Those that will say to God 'Thy will be done' and those to whom God will say 'Thy will be done.'"

Also, a perspective on Foreknowledge and Predestination is that God is able both to foreknow AND to allow ABSOLUTE freedom.

It is like when I ask my daughter (who HATES pickles and LOVES Ice Cream)

"Would you like Ice Cream or a Pickle?"

I KNOW without doubt which one she will choose, yet I am not forcing her to choose one or the other.

If you say "That is no choice at all! She would never choose a pickle!" you are right! If she was choosing based on what she truly desires, she would never choose a pickle.

But if she was choosing just to spite me...

Who would Choose Hell? Yet, according to Matthew 7:13, Many will choose hell.

Anyway, thanks for making me think!

But I seem to have wandered from my original point, which was that it is Biblical to rejoice at the Justice of God being made manifest in the death of the wicked.(Psalm 58:10)

 2006/6/13 10:46Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 wandering basis hound

bro basis Hound
in doing a bit of digging about foreknowledge using matthew henry's commentary, the same word in the greek which is used for foreknowledge is also rendered fore-ordination. then in john 6:65 the word says that noone may come to Christ except the Father calls him...and Christ says the same in vs 44 of that chapter. this speak to the tragedy of our fallennes that even if we wanted to we couldn't even begin to come to God because it is completely foreign to us. God's grace and mercy must first move for us to even become aware that we need salvation. what a most pittiful state we are in as humans! God help us indeed for without that, we're done.

when did you first know about free will? before or after Christ? if before, what shaped that view and has that view changed?

in short bro free will and predestination are 2 things which seem mutually exclusive to our fleshly mind, but when predestination is fully understood, that is the mystery thereof, then God's mercy and sovereignty become plain to the recipient so that he doesn't boast he is saved, but is humbled, and is in constant repentance and supplication for the other vessels of mercy out there. such a one is so acutely aware of God's mercy that he shows that mercy to all.

now let us wander back to your original point :-P

i stand corrected and increased in the knowledge of God about rejoicing in the manifestation of the judgement of God. i was ignorant of this so i thank God for the beauty of fellowship wherein we all learn something to His glory.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 11:47Profile
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re: wandering basis hound

great post Ironman!!!

I love this one:

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/6/13 12:02Profile





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