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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid

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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
sis diane brings up a compelling issue again, the need for death of self. in short everything we are and have must go to the cross to be crucified, ambitions, ideas, common sense even the love we have naturally. all this is of no use in the work of God and must be stripped off lest we dare boast and say that we did something for God on our own strength...

after all brethren, don't the heathens also have these same attributes? do they not also love and have common sense and ambition? if they do, how different can we be from them? the word says the old man must die, we must die that Christ lives in us and we have a lot of dying to do...the truth is we ought to lean wholly on the ability of God in all things for anything else will ensure that whatever we are wrestling against will not be subdued.

bro Stever you said that i'm spiritualizing our walk, if we don't tackle the issue of our faith in spirit, how can we hope to see it manifest in the flesh? if one is to be a martyr or indeed suffer anything for Christ, he has to be dead in the flesh first. if not the flesh will fight tooth and nail to keep from suffering. one can't die for Christ unless one is dead in the flesh, sure one can say he is dying for Christ, but then there is the issue of doing so without love as paul says and it all amounting to nothing. the only way the martyrs of old endured what they did was because they were dead to self and had no regard for their existance but were concerned with giving God glory. we need to see the primacy of this and that all we do, and i mean every single thing issues forth from that, even those things which seem like no brainers. before Christ we saw those things and dealt with them accorning to our fleshly knowledge and experience, should that not change now that we are in Christ?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 12:05Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Matt
i love that about God too! man to be conformed to the image of His Son who sought to do the Father's will and glorify Him...whoa...that is HUGE!!!or should i say that is ALL in ALL!!!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 12:07Profile
Basis_Hound
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 3


 Re: wandering basis hound

IronMan,

I agree with you that freewill and predestination seem to be mutually exclusive, but remember, Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes and, as I said, there is no contradiction.

I think you misunderstand my emphasis. I am saying that God foreknew which choice each of us would make "of our own free will" and predestined us accordingly, so "Everyone who seeks, finds." Again, I say there is no contradiction!

We, in the end will each freely choose the choice which God foreknew and predestined.

You asked:

Quote:
when did you first know about free will? before or after Christ? if before, what shaped that view and has that view changed?


I am wondering what you mean by that

To answer your question: I came to Christ at the age of 5 ('Calling on the Name of the Lord' is a moral choice, not an intellectual one)and so all of my theology has been developed after I came to Christ.

About your final paragraph: I am genuinely impressed by your humility. It is a beautiful thing and far too rare in this world.

I guess you'll now call me "Wondering Basis_Hound" :-)

 2006/6/13 12:31Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro (wondering/wandering) Basis hound :-P

Quote:
I agree with you that freewill and predestination seem to be mutually exclusive, but remember, Christianity is a religion of Paradoxes and, as I said, there is no contradiction.



oh i agree bro, i think we've been talking past eachother. yes the 2 seem mutually exclusive and impossible to reconcile yet this is the case. When we get on the other side the mechanics of this mystery will be made plain, for now i'm content to see it as the Lord's Sovereign exercise of His mercy and that i'm called to be a vessel of mercy so i'll do whatever it is vessels of mercy do.

well since you came to Christ at such an early age, the Lord certainly had great influence on how you perceive the world and this is a most important thing.

Quote:
About your final paragraph: I am genuinely impressed by your humility. It is a beautiful thing and far too rare in this world.



well bro, you have the Lord to thank for that because if it were not for Him, i'd be a very different man...naturally i'm very stubborn but the Lord let me know that in spite of how highly i thought of myself, i needed redemption and i was not even aware of it. till He let me know anyway. that'll set you down right quick. When the Lord reveals the extent of His mercy on you, you can't think highly of yourself any more coz His mercy smacks you in your face in a way you can't quite ignore. anyway i bless and thank God and give Him the glory coz it is a testament to His mercy working in me!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/13 17:26Profile









 Re: Headspace

Dear Daine: You are correct, I am not aware of your headspace. However, I have a question for you that will hopefully resolve this issue.

If your country, Canada, was attacked by another country, and all able bodied men and women were required to serve in the military, would you comply, or would you leave your country in order to not comply?

God bless,

Stever :-D

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Stever wrote to Roadsign,
Quote:
Your response would be welcomed.



I admit, Stever, that we haven’t had many conversations together, so you haven’t had a chance to know my headspace. So, I can see that some of my points could seem unbiblical. For example: You are justifiably concerned about “faith” being a mask for passivity and fatalism. This pervasive position has indeed crept under the umbrella of Christianity.

[Post snipped]

 2006/6/13 19:37
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Hi, Stever,
Let us imagine next situation.
Your country and my country are in war. And as I can understand you will take sword. Let us say that I will take sword also. And both of us are in front lines. And we start shouting each other, because we are in war for our country. From your logic we should fight for our country.
And can you imagine the face of our Lord Jesus?
Can you see the tragedy of that?
God is watching Hid children fighting, with carnal weapons. Imagine that your pastor will be there, and mine pastor will be there. And many members of our churches. What a tragedy of that.
These are last days. And there is a spritual war, that few can see it. There is no time for other battles. The devil is with all his might against us. To destroy the believers.

Two nights ago I was going through revelation and without intention for searching verses, this verse came to me like thunder:

[i][b]9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.[/b]
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: [b]he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.[/b][/i]

Is this something with double meaning, are we trying to avoid what Jesus said, and to change the meaning of it, it is simple. the bible is also fom simple and plain people. people who don't have education and don't know to make bible complex. people just with faith like childrens.
how can you explane to your children that it is ok to kill for the government, when you children knows that Jesus tells them not to kill. it is simple.
And so the arguments come pouring forth in quick succesion-all to prove that the Lord Jesus could not have meant what He said. there are no contradictions in the bible.

[i]15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.[/i]

we don't need PhD to understand the words of our Lord, we need just an open heart with faith like child.

You are refering to what David, Abraham and others did in the old testament. But you are not saying what Jesus said to us.

[i]It hath been said... [b]But I say unto you,[/b] [/i]

there is new commandment.

May the Lord give us faith like children, to accept His words with all our heart and believe them with no doubts.

 2006/6/13 20:23Profile









 Re:

Dear Tears of Joy:

As an individual believer in Jesus Christ, what you posted most definitely applies to me and every other christian individually.

It does not apply if we are in the service of our country--if we are acting as a policeman, or as soldiers, we are to take up the sword to defend righteousness.

I truly pray that you can see the difference between individuals and those working for the Government when they are no longer judged as individuals by God, and have a specific duties and functions in the Governments that God set up on this earth.

This is the work done by J. Vernon McGee in his Bible Commentary on Romans 13:


[b][size=small]RELATIONSHIP TO GOVERNMENT


Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God [Rom. 13:1]. [/size][/b]

We are to submit ourselves to governmental authorities for the very simple reason that they are ordained of God. It is true that the kingdoms of this world belong to Satan and that injustice and corruption abound in all governments; yet God still has control. History is the monotonous account of how a government flourished for a time in pomp and pride and then was brought to ruin and rubble. Why? Because corruption and lawlessness became rampant. As it did, God brought the government to an end. God still rules—even over this earth. God has not abdicated His throne; He is riding triumphantly in His own chariot. Neither is He disturbed about what is happening on this earth.

You will recall that when Uzziah, king of Judah, died, Isaiah was disturbed and very much discouraged. Uzziah had been a good king, and Isaiah thought the government would disintegrate after he was gone. So Isaiah went into the temple, which is a good place to go at a time like that. He came into God’s presence, and He saw the Lord sitting upon the throne, high and lifted up. In other words, God had not abdicated. Uzziah was dead, but God was not dead. God was still on the throne.
Now the allegiance of the Christian is to that throne. And his relationship to his government on earth is submission.


[b][size=small]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation [Rom. 13:2].[/size][/b]

In other words, anyone resisting the authority is resisting the ordinance of God. And those resisting shall receive for themselves judgment.
The principle stated in verse 1 raised many questions which the following verses amplify and explain. This verse seems to preclude the possibility of a believer having any part in rebellion or revolution. What about it? James Stifler cites the examples of Cromwell and Washington. Both of those men led a revolution. Stifler offers no solution. I am not sure I have one either, but I am going to do the best I can to solve this. The believer has opposed bad government and supported good government on the theory that good government is the one ordained of God. The believer is for law and order, as over against lawlessness. He is for honesty and justice, as over against corruption and rank injustice. At great moments of crisis in history—and that’s where we are today—the believers have had difficult decisions to make.

I want to briefly give you my viewpoint, and I believe that it will coincide with history. During these last days, which I believe we are in right now, lawlessness abounds. The believer must oppose it; he must not be a part of it, even when it is in his own government. We need to beware of those who would change our government under the guise of improving it. Remember John the Baptist was beheaded by Herod, Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, James, the brother of John, was slain with the sword of Herod, and Paul was put to death by Nero. Yet Paul says, “Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation” (v. 2). Therefore, Christianity never became a movement to improve government, help society, or clean up the town. The gospel was the power of God unto salvation of the individual. Paul never went around telling about the deplorable conditions of Roman jails—and he knew them well from the inside. When visiting Rome, my wife and I went to the Mamertine prison, and I got claustrophobia down there. I said to my wife, “Let’s get out of here!” But Paul couldn’t get out; they kept him down in that damp, dark prison. Remember he wrote to Timothy, “Bring my cloak with you” (see 2 Tim. 4:13)—he was getting cold down there.

It is very difficult to say that we are to obey a corrupt government. I am not impressed by these men—preacher or politician—who are running up the American flag and singing the national anthem as promotion for themselves. And behind it is corruption. Frankly, I feel resentful when I hear of certain government officials and certain wealthy men in positions of power who pay no taxes at all when I have a heavy tax burden. There is corruption in government from the top to the bottom, and it is not confined to one party. These unsaved, godless men who are in positions of government actually do not understand the American system. You see, the men who made our laws had a Bible background. I don’t know that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian—he was a deist—but he had great respect for the Word of God. Many of those men were outstanding Christians—John Hancock, whose name is first on the Declaration of Independence, was a real Christian. However, in our day the government is corrupt. I go to the civic centers in our cities, and I see fine buildings, costing millions of dollars, which have been built by contractors who are friends of the politicians. Also I see poverty areas. While both parties talk about eliminating poverty, the poverty remains. Oh, corruption is there. What’s wrong? Well, the thing wrong is the human heart.
What is the Christian to do? My business is to get out the Word of God, and my business is to obey the law. That is what Paul is saying here. Christianity is not a movement to improve government or to help society clean up the town. It is to preach a gospel that is the power of God unto salvation which will bring into existence individuals like the men who signed the Declaration of Independence and gave us a government of laws.

My friend, nothing is wrong with our form of government; there is something wrong with the individuals who are in positions of power. A professor in the history department of the University of Michigan summed it up well when he said, “America is in the hands of those who do not understand the spiritual heritage that we have.”


[b][size=small]For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil [Rom. 13:3–4].[/size][/b]

The government is to maintain law and order. When it does not do that, it has failed. I feel that a Christian should be opposed to the breakdown of law and order. We are to respect our rulers who are enforcing the law. I have great respect for our army, although it is honeycombed with corruption. I have great respect for police officers, although I know they make mistakes.


[b][size=small]Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake [Rom. 13:5].[/size][/b]

Christians are to obey the law not only because we’ll be judged and have to pay a fine if we don’t, but obey for conscience sake.


For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing [Rom. 13:6].[/size][/b]

Although we may resent the way our tax money is being used, we are to pay taxes anyway.
In this verse the word for minister is one from which we get our word liturgy. It is strictly religious and is the same word used of angels in Hebrews 1:14 where they are called ministering spirits. This means that the ruler occupies a divinely-appointed office. He has no religious function, of course, but he holds a God-appointed office. That makes me pay my taxes, although I resent doing so.

We need today a heaven-sent revival. I am sick and tired of those who are shedding crocodile tears. They remind me of Lewis Carroll’s brilliant satire, Alice in Wonderland. You remember that the Walrus and the Carpenter in this story were walking along the seashore weeping because there was so much sand and not enough oysters. They kept on eating and eating and weeping and weeping. What a picture of corruption! But in all of this the believer should submit to his government.


[[b][size=small]Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour [Rom. 13:7].[/size][/b]

Although there may be unworthy men in the office, we are to respect the office. When I was in the army, I was told to salute the uniform. There were some folk in that uniform that I didn’t care about saluting, but I saluted the uniform. We are to show respect for authority. A Christian will be the best citizen although his citizenship is in heaven.

McGee, J. Vernon, Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 2000, c1981.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/13 22:09
boomatt
Member



Joined: 2006/3/20
Posts: 235
fredericksburg, Virginia

 Re:

Great post stever,

and please pray for my brother William, he is going back to Iraq Aug. 1


_________________
Matt Kroelinger

 2006/6/13 22:52Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: God or our nation

Stever said:

Quote:
If your country, Canada, was attacked by another country



Let’s suppose that other country was the USA. There would be 100 of you against 1 of me. All-out war against you would be a sure defeat for us. So I doubt my country would call me to fight you. So what might my people do in order to protect our nation? You’ve heard it said: if you can’t beat them you join them. Now that’s a better idea. We could be your friends instead, and join your way of life – buy your movies, watch your TV stations, read your books, adopt your philosophies, order your Christian music and adopt your religious trends. We could let you own our companies on our land. We could buy your franchises and give your some of our air space. So, now, we are friends. There is no need for war. Thankfully. (really?)

Suppose we don’t want to buy your way of life, and we want to maintain our own identity and religion. We can’t defeat you, but we can try to weaken you. So my leaders might choose terrorism. What a great idea! We have no other choice. Anyway, there is nothing to lose. And if all fails, at least we have a reward in the next life. After all, we have God on our side.


You see, a confusion arises when we wrap our flag around the cross too tightly. So we get this horrible dilemma:

Quote:
Your country and my country are in war. And as I can understand you will take sword. Let us say that I will take sword also. And both of us are in front lines. And we start shouting each other, because we are in war for our country.



Let me tell you, if your God tells you to obey your rulers – even when they tell you to drop a bomb on me and my children and my friends, then I want nothing to do with your God.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/6/14 8:37Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: fight or flight or.................?

Stever continued:

Quote:
and all able bodied men and women were required to serve in the military… would you comply, or would you leave your country in order to not comply?


This question gives me only two options. One is fight and the other is flight – both are fear responses. Are there no other options???

Now, let’s examine God’s thoughts on these two options presented.

When Israel was under captivity in Babylon God, through Jeremiah, gave them strict instructions to remain, to accept their ruling authorities, to grow crops, and make homes. However, the Israelites could not trust God to care for them during their captivity, so they disobeyed God’s instructions and fled to Egypt. (the flight approach) They got walloped!

Now fast forward to 70 AD, when the Jews took the sword against the Romans. (the fight approach) They got walloped – this time for good. Their entire civilization was dispersed. I ask, should they have known better? What was their sin?

In both historical accounts the sin was the same: unbelief. They could not see any other option in “dealing” with their oppressors.

Romans 13:1 says
Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished.

Clearly, the Jews were warned not to oppose their present authorities – the Romans, but simply accept them, and instead trust God to protect and provide. Jesus also made that clear in many ways. He came to be the governor of another kingdom – and that kingdom keeps on growing.

So if neither flight nor fight (both fear responses) are God-given options in dealing with our threats, then we must ask, Has God given us some clear workable viable options? What are they?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/6/14 9:23Profile





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