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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Logic

you wrote

Quote:
Answer both why and how Enoch and Elijah could be with God and the righteous dead couldn't?



stever got to this before me, but yes these 2 men didn't die but were taken up to heaven, enoch is said to have not been seen again coz God took him away while Elijah, well Elijah took off in a fiery chariot. i don't know of anyone else who left for heaven without dying.

well if abraham's bosom is heaven, it's certainly not referred to as such in the revelation for instance which leads me to believe that heaven and abraham's bosom are 2 different places.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/6/6 4:00Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Stever et al

Quote:
Abrahams Bosom and Hell are two different places, as explained by Christ:



i figured Abraham's bosom and hell one unit separated into 2 places, the same in that they held the dead: one place held the righteous and the other the damned. should have been clearer on that.

forgive me brethren


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Farai Bamu

 2006/6/6 4:04Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Chris
on no, i remember we have in he lounge and it was about this very topic but yeah, these sorts of things do a boomerang kinda thing. i guess this is clear enough for me. may the Lord's will be done. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/6 4:06Profile









 Re:

IRONMAN POSTED:
well if abraham's bosom is heaven, it's certainly not referred to as such in the revelation for instance which leads me to believe that heaven and abraham's bosom are 2 different places.

Stever responds:

I think the reason it is not mentioned in Revelation is because when Christ ascended on the first day of the week He took "Captivity Captive" with Him to Heaven, and cleared Abraham's bosom out.

There was no need for it once He took care of the sin problem.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 12:26
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Stever

you said:

Quote:

Stever wrote:
IRONMAN POSTED:
well if abraham's bosom is heaven, it's certainly not referred to as such in the revelation for instance which leads me to believe that heaven and abraham's bosom are 2 different places.

Stever responds:

I think the reason it is not mentioned in Revelation is because when Christ ascended on the first day of the week He took "Captivity Captive" with Him to Heaven, and cleared Abraham's bosom out.

There was no need for it once He took care of the sin problem.

God bless,

Stever :-D



does this mean you think Abraham's bosom and heaven are 2 different places? :-?

to me it seems if the 2 were the same it would be obvious. or maybe i'm missing something? :-?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/6 14:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Stever

you said:
Quote:

Stever wrote:
IRONMAN POSTED:
well if abraham's bosom is heaven, it's certainly not referred to as such in the revelation for instance which leads me to believe that heaven and abraham's bosom are 2 different places.

Stever responds:

I think the reason it is not mentioned in Revelation is because when Christ ascended on the first day of the week He took "Captivity Captive" with Him to Heaven, and cleared Abraham's bosom out.

There was no need for it once He took care of the sin problem.

God bless,

Stever :-D



does this mean you think Abraham's bosom and heaven are 2 different places? :-?

to me it seems if the 2 were the same it would be obvious. or maybe i'm missing something? :-?



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Stever's response to IRONMAN:

Abrahms bosom was referred to as Paradise in ancient Judaism. Christ told the theif on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", meaning Abrahams Bosom.

Today, Abrahams bosom has been emptied, and now Heaven is referred to as "Paradise"
2 Cor 12:
"3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities."

Christ refers to this place (Paradise) in Revelation as a place where believers and God are together:
7. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

In conclusion, there is never again mention of Abrahams bosom after Christ's resurrection from the dead, when he led captivity captive to heaven. Paradise is now synominous with a place where man and God come together,in Heaven.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 15:16
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Stever...

Quote:
There is nothing to be “careful about” if we stick to God’s Word the Bible and focus on that alone, and what it teaches us. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

If you think there are OTHER meanings to the prophecy that I have quoted in regards to the Messiah in the Old Testament, and fulfilled in the New Testament, then please post it.

Again, go through what I have posted, and point out my error.

This is precisely what I am talking about. What divides the true Body of Christ is usually not the obvious doctrines from the Scripture -- it is the [i]interpretations[/i] or [i]conclusions[/i] in which people often suppose the Lord has led them. It can be dangerous to preach something that is not 100% clear AS A FACT -- when it can simply be a personal conclusion. How often do we hear someone say with ease, "[i]The Holy Spirit spoke this to me[/i]..." -or- "[i]God told me...[/i]"?!? What happens when two or more people are saying the same thing, yet arrive to completely different conclusions?

It is a fine thing to discuss and search out the mysteries that are found in the Word. The Bible says that "[i]It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter[/i]" (Proverbs 25:2). But sometimes, believers arrive to different conclusions on the same matters. It is silly to walk around with an "[i]I'm right and everyone else is wrong[/i]" attitude about issues that are not completely clear from the Word of God. Entire denominations are often built upon such things. Of course, there is an obvious difference between issues that are completely clear (the trinity, the need for salvation by faith, baptism, avoiding sin, etc... -- and those things found in Hebrews 6:1-3). But how often are there divisions over inconsequential or even superficial matters where we differ in opinion?

I would greatly like to hear the words "[i]my opinion[/i]," "[i]my belief[/i]," or "[i]my conclusion[/i]" (or even, "[i]I am convinced[/i]...") when individuals speak about certain doctrinal issues. Otherwise, conflict will continue because individuals will arrogantly or haughtily believe that they are [i]speaking for God[/i] -- without allowing the possibility of being wrong.

How many times does this happen in these forums? Individuals sometimes speak with certainty things that are far from certain. The list of individual beliefs here is almost as long as the membership list. There are pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib believers. There are "KJV-only" believers and "some other versions are okay" believers. There are people who preach against any wine and those who believe a little wine is okay. There are women preachers and also people that believe women have no authority to speak in Churches. What else? This list could go on and on! We could talk about the various beliefs about the gifts of the Spirit, music, the extent or limits of predestination, personal dress, tithes and offerings, etc... Have you ever seen someone that so strongly believed something that it created a huge rift between believers?

So what kind of attitude should we have? I believe that we should be quick to state the differences between what is clear from the Word and what is simply our conclusion. This does not harm any authority in preaching the Word. In fact, it could strengthen the need for others to search out matters for themselves. It permits us to speak with true humility and meekness. And the true worldwide Body of Christ, unconfined by Church walls or demoninational differences, can use some humility.
Quote:
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[i]I Corinthians 3:10[/i]

As for the matter concerning "[i]Abraham's bosom[/i]," I cannot state for fact that it is a physical location. At the same time, I cannot say with any certainty that it is not. I was raised in a Church that taught that Abraham's bosom was simply a holding place for the righteous before Christ's victory over death. However, it does sound an awful lot like purgatory. In my opinion, it may simply be that Lazarus was within Abraham's embrace when the Rich Man noticed him. Or were we possibly seeing timeless eternity rather than Earthly present? Regardless, I cannot state with absolute certainty any truth in this matter.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/6/6 15:27Profile









 Re:

Stever responds to Ccchhhrrriiisss:

The teaching that I have posted here was common 30-40 years ago, before the change to the "NIV" and all of the "Newer Versions".

If you disagree with my conclusions, then give me your understanding of the same scripture. Be specific, and respond to what I have posted. I have quoted Scripture to support my position, and as of yet you have not. If you disagree, then give us your answer from Scripture.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 15:48









 Re:Purgatory? Heaven forbid!

Ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

"I was raised in a Church that taught that Abraham's bosom was simply a holding place for the righteous before Christ's victory over death. However, IT DOES SOUND AN AWFUL LOT LIKE PURGATORY. In my opinion, it may simply be that Lazarus was within Abraham's embrace when the Rich Man noticed him. Or were we possibly seeing timeless eternity rather than Earthly present? Regardless, I cannot state with absolute certainty any truth in this matter."
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

Purgatory is totally false doctrine and cannot be found in the Bible. It is Catholic doctrine.

All of the people in Abraham's bosom were saved, in direct contrast to those that were lost on the other side in hell.

All believers are made righteous by their belief in Messiah, Jesus Christ, the Seed of the Woman.

Christ's righteousness is imputed to all believers. We have no need to go to a place to make us clean. Christ's blood cleanses us all, both before and after the cross. Our "work" is to believe in Him. Those before the cross had to wait until He finished His work at the cross and at the resurrection.

This is the False Doctrine of Purgatory:

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:


"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal Punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Venial Sins

All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God's law. On the other hand whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.

So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity. ("Aeneid," VI, 735 sq.; Sophocles, "Antigone," 450 sq.).

II. ERRORS

Epiphanius (haer., lxxv, P.G., XLII, col. 513) complains that Acrius (fourth cent.) taught that prayers for the dead were of no avail. In the Middle Ages, the doctrine of purgatory was rejected by the Albigenses, Waldenses, and Hussites. St. Bernard (Serm. lxvi in Cantic., P. L. CLXXXIII, col. 1098) states that the so-called "Apostolici" denied purgatory and the utility of prayers for the departed. Much discussion has arisen over the position the Greeks on the question of purgatory. It would seem that the great difference of opinion not concerning the existence of purgatory but concerning the nature of purgatorial fire; still St. Thomas proves the existence of purgatory in his dissertation against the errors of the Greeks, and the Council of Florence also thought necessary to affirm the belief of the Church on the subject (Bellarmine, "De Purgatorio," lib. I, cap. i). The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory, but is rather inconsistent in its way of putting forth its belief.

At the beginning of the Reformation there was some hesitation especially on Luther's part (Leipzig Disputation) as to whether the doctrine should be retained, but as the breach widened, the denial of purgatory by the Reformers became universal, and Calvin termed the Catholic position "exitiale commentum quod crucem Christi evacuat . . . quod fidem nostram labefacit et evertit" (Institutiones, lib. III, cap. v, 6). Modern Protestants, while they avoid the name purgatory, frequently teach the doctrine of "the middle state," and Martensen ("Christian Dogmatics," Edinburgh, 1890, p. 457) writes: "As no soul leaves this present existence in a fully complete and prepared state, we must suppose that there is an intermediate state, a realm of progressive development, (?) in which souls are prepared for the final judgment" (Farrar, "Mercy and Judgment," London, 1881, cap. iii).

III. PROOFS

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapt. xxi, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.,

Intercession has been made for the soul of the dear one departed and God has heard the prayer, and the soul has passed into a place of light and refreshment." "Surely," Wilpert adds, "such intercession would have no place were there question not of the particular, but of the final judgment.
Some stress too has been laid upon the objection that the ancient Christians had no clear conception of purgatory, and that they thought that the souls departed remained in uncertainty of salvation to the last day; and consequently they prayed that those who had gone before might in the final judgment escape even the everlasting torments of hell. The earliest Christian traditions are clear as to the particular judgment, and clearer still concerning a sharp distinction between purgatory and hell. The passages alledged as referring to relief from hell cannot offset the evidence given below (Bellarmine, "De Purgatorio," lib. II, cap. v). Concerning the famous case of Trajan, which vexed the Doctors of the Middle Ages, see Bellarmine, loc. cit., cap. Viii.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 15:57
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Stever wrote:

Quote:
Abrahams Bosom and Hell are two different places, as explained by Christ:



I agree to that, but in Verse [b]23:[/b] [color=990000]And in hell [b]he lift up his eyes[/b], being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in/at/on his bosom.[/color]

Notice the rich man looked up.

Picture Lazarus on Abrahams' as John was reclining on Jesus' bosom at the Lords' supper.

Quote:
In regards to Enoch and Elijah, I personally think that these two are going to be the “two witnesses” during the Tribulation. The reason, they never died, and to receive their resurrected bodies, they will have to come back to die. Where is God keeping them now? This is not revealed to us in Scripture.



It doesn't make sence that Enoch and Elijah go to heaven but the rest can not.

Quote:
Where is God keeping them now? This is not revealed to us in Scripture.



They are a given to represeant a picture of the rapture.
Therefor they are in heaven.
[b]2Kings 2:11[/b] [color=990000]And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and [b]Elijah went up[/b] by a whirlwind into heaven.[/color]

It would not make sence to go up then back down to Abrahams Bosom if that is where it is.
[color=990000]

 2006/6/6 16:30Profile





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