SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Abrahams Boosm

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Logic
God is indeed outside time and space, but we aren't so whatever He plans He will bring to fruition in time (so to speak) to see it realized in us and for us. so untill Christ came to die on earth for us men to see (even though The Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world) noone could go to heaven right away (except Enoch and then Elijah who were taken by Him) so there was need for a place of holding.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/5 11:26Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi IRONMAN...

Quote:
actually Abraham's Bosom is part of the holding place called hell. hell is made up of 2 parts, Abraham's Bosom which is the holding place of the righteous, and a holding place for the damned. Nowhere in canon is this place mentioned other than in the gospel in question. the explanation of what hell is is in the book of enoch. hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire, which is the hell we think of as being hell proper, the final hell. This is where the saints of old were held until Christ came to die. Christ was indeed slain from the foundations of the world, however for whatever reason the o.t. saints didn't go straight to heaven after death but waited in this place which is also calles sheol. when Christ died, He emptied it so noone goes to Abraham's bosom any more, but straight to heaven. i'm unsure if the part of hell for the damned is still in use though as a holding place for the damned still but it will be used yet again when the horsemen of the apocalypse ride, namely the pale horse which is followed by hell when the rider kills 1/4 of all men by various means.

I cannot [u]agree[/u] or [u]disagree[/u] with this position. Why? It doesn't appear clear in the Scriptures. Did Jesus go to Hell? Is "[i]Abraham's Bosom[/i]" an actual location? There are some great arguments from both sides of these issues.

I often consider the concept of "eternity." There is no time in eternity (at least the way we think of time). What happens when a person dies? Do they stay in the ground (asleep)? Do they go instantly and stand before the Lord? Do they get judged, sentenced and confined to Hell as we go on living? Or is possible, due to the lack of time, that all three are correct? What if, when we die, we all are standing before God -- including those who died AFTER us? There are passages in the Scriptures that can be used to justify any of these positions.

Regardless, I fear that we sometimes make doctrines out of issues that are either unimportant for us to know definitively, or are unclear according to the Scriptures. At best, we should consider them all theories or opinions. And at the very least, we should be careful not to preach such things as inarguable fact.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/6/5 14:31Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro chris
you and i have been through this haven't we? :-P


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/6/5 22:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

IRONMAN wrote:

Quote:
no one could go to heaven right away (except Enoch and then Elijah who were taken by Him) so there was need for a place of holding.


Answer both why and how Enoch and Elijah could be with God and the righteous dead couldn't?
Quote:
Abraham's Bosom is part of the holding place called hell.

If you get this from the great gulf fixed between the rich man & Lazerus both being in hell, I say that the gulf is from heaven to hell; Lazerus being in heaven & the rich man being in hell.

 2006/6/5 23:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Stever wrote:
Quote:
It seems to me that Paradise was a place in the Old Testament where saved man was waiting for Christ to come, to take away all sin, in order that he could go to heaven and be with God.
Today, after the Cross...



You are forgetting that there is no before and after cross with GOD, because of this verse...

[b]Rev 13:8[/b] [color=990000] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b][/color]
And
[b]Rom 4:17[/b] [color=990000]GOD....calleth those things which be not as though they were.[/color]

There was no need for a place to wait for Jesus to come and die on the cross, even you agree that...
Quote:
God is outside of time and space



I may be a little slow on answering in this thread untill tuesday, because my internet is out untill then.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds to Logic:

Psalms 16:10 gives us the Propehcy that the Holy One (Messiah) will not be left in hell. It also tells us that his body will not see corruption. Why? Because He will be resurrected from the dead!

“10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Psalms 68:18 tells us that Messiah will lead Captivity Captive (Old Testament believers that believed in the Messiah to come, and because of their belief did not go to hell, but to a place adjacent to it called Abraham’s Bosom, as described to us by Jesus)



18.Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Ephesians 4:7-12 tells us that Jesus Christ fulfilled the both prophecies above:

“ But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
xxxxxxxxxxxx

1 Peter 3:19-22 tells us that Christ also witnessed to the unsaved, when he went to the “lower parts of the earth” as prophesized in Psalms 16:10, as wells as fulfilled in Ephesians 4:7-12

“19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Eventhough I do not particularly like the “Living Bible” because it is a Paraphrase, I find it sometimes interesting to look at the same verses in 1 Peter 3:19-22 and compare to the King James:

“19. and it was in the spirit that he visited the spirits in prison, and preached to them--
20. spirits of those who, long before in the days of Noah, had refused to listen to God, though he waited patiently for them while Noah was building the ark. Yet only eight persons were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
21. (That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ; not because our bodies are washed clean by the water, but because in being baptized we are turning to God and asking him to cleanse our hearts from sin.)
22. And now Christ is in heaven, sitting in the place of honor next to God the Father, with all the angels and powers of heaven bowing before him and obeying him.”

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Who exactly was held captive in Abraham’s bosom? All of the “Heroes of Faith” that are mentioned in the New Testament, that all lived before the cross, that can be found in Hebrews, Chapter 11:

“4. By faith Abel
5. By faith Enoch
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7. By faith Noah
8. By faith Abraham with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
11. Through faith also Sara

13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

22. By faith Joseph,
23. By faith Moses, Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

31. By faith the harlot Rahab
32. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What were these saints before the Cross all about?
34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38. (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Many say that the story of Abraham’s bosom is a parable, but it is not. Why? Because actual names are given, and thus it is not a parable but a description of an actual place provided to us by Jesus Christ himself.

Luke 16:19-31 gives us the description of an actual place, with real names, of a place called Abrahams bosom. It is also called Paradise at this time, because Christ told the thief on the cross that “today you will be with me in paradise”. He did not ascend to heaven for 3 days, but His (Christ’s soul) was in the belly of the earth. First on the side of Abrahams bosom, where He dropped the thief off, and then he went to the other side, Hell, and “preached to the captives before the flood”:

“19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/5 23:32
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi IRONMAN...

Quote:
bro chris
you and i have been through this haven't we? :-P

lol Probably! But like alot of things in the forums, we seem to wander around the same rocks in the desert over and over... How many threads have there been concerning Bible versions/translations, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, megachurches, etc..? Periodically, there have been several threads about the same issue running at the same time. But they are always interesting to discuss -- particularly since our views often change as we grow and mature in the Lord.

Still, I think it can be problematic to make definitive doctrines out of issues that are not totally clear from the Scriptures.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/6/5 23:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
IRONMAN wrote:
Quote:
no one could go to heaven right away (except Enoch and then Elijah who were taken by Him) so there was need for a place of holding.


Answer both why and how Enoch and Elijah could be with God and the righteous dead couldn't?
Quote:
Abraham's Bosom is part of the holding place called hell.

If you get this from the great gulf fixed between the rich man & Lazerus both being in hell, I say that the gulf is from heaven to hell; Lazerus being in heaven & the rich man being in hell.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Abrahams Bosom and Hell are two different places, as explained by Christ:

Luke 16:2023
"20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21.And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22.And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

In regards to Enoch and Elijah, I personally think that these two are going to be the “two witnesses” during the Tribulation. The reason, they never died, and to receive their resurrected bodies, they will have to come back to die. Where is God keeping them now? This is not revealed to us in Scripture.

God bless,


Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 0:32









 Re:

Ccchhrriiisss posted:
"Still, I think it can be problematic to make definitive doctrines out of issues that are not totally clear from the Scriptures."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

The Catholics feel the same way, especially about the Book of Revelation, as well as Genesis. They say it is an "allegory".

"The Bible should not be read allegorically."

This statement, or the equivalent, may be commonly heard in evangelical, fundamental, or charismatic churches. Conservative Christians believe the Bible is factually, historically true: that it must be read and understood literally, and not spiritualized into an allegory. Though this sounds very pious and orthodox, there's one small flaw in this position -- it seems no one told the apostles, or Jesus! For all the writers of the New Testament, and Jesus Himself in the Gospel accounts, refer to the Old Testament PRIMARILY as spiritual allegory. (Of course, we may excuse their oversight, since they never went to seminary!)

According to Webster's dictionary, an allegory is "The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form." If we look in the New Testament, we find that the NORMAL and USUAL interpretation of Old Testament Scripture is allegorical in nature.

Let us look first at the Gospel authors' use of Old Testament Scripture. We may go straight through the Gospel of Matthew (which is the New Testament book richest in Old Testament citations) and tick off one allegorical reference after another.


"You shall call his name Emmanuel" (Matthew 1:23, referring to Isaiah 7:14) This is not a literal reference to Jesus' name, but a figurative reference to His nature. The allegorical nature of this prophecy is even more clearly seen in Isaiah 7:15ff., where the destruction of Judah's enemies represents the downfall of Satan and his cohorts through the death and resurrection of Christ.

"Out of Egypt I have called my son" (Matthew 2:15, referring to Hosea 11:1) Here an allegorical comparison is made between the Exodus and the circumstances of Jesus' infancy, showing that Jesus is the one who will bring His people out of bondage.

"A voice was heard in Rama, Rachel weeping for her children …" (Matthew 2:18, referring to Jeremiah 31:15) Matthew compares Jeremiah's description of the Babylonian captivity with Herod's massacre of the infants in Bethlehem. The comparison is purely allegorical, for the factual details are quite different. Herod's massacre took place in Bethlehem and not Rama, which is a town belonging to the tribe of Benjamin. Those who were killed were not even Rachel's offspring but Leah's, because Bethlehem belonged to the tribe of Judah. The two events, though factually disparate, are undergirded by the same spiritual principle, namely the unrighteous ravage God's people because they have wandered from Him.

Next, we look at the Epistles. Paul in particular is extremely creative in his allegorical treatment of the Old Testament. We should of course mention his description of the story of Hagar and Sarah as an allegory for the old and new covenants (this is the only place in the Bible that the word "allegory" is used explicitly).

Paul's other interpretations are no less allegorical. He takes Genesis 2:24, " Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh", and applies it PRIMARILY to Christ's marriage to the Church, then SECONDARILY to human marriage.

Paul even interprets the Mosaic law allegorically. For instance, Paul takes the instruction, "Do not muzzle the ox which treads out the grain", as a characteristic instantiation of a general principle, that the laborer (whether man or beast) should be allowed to partake of the firstfruits of his own labor (1 Corinthians 9:7-10). As another example, Paul takes the Law's permission for widows to marry, and applies it to our death to the law and remarriage by faith to the resurrected Christ (Romans 7).

Apart from Paul, Peter in his epistles also made use of allegory, comparing the waters of Noah's flood with the saving waters of believers' baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21). The writer of Hebrews takes the figure of Isaac's deliverance from sacrifice to represent the resurrection of the faithful (Hebrews 11:17-19).

Finally, let us look at Jesus' own allegorical use of the Scriptures. Recall Jesus' famous statement as recorded by John: "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man shall be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in Him should have everlasting life" (John 3:14). In this brief statement, the episode of Israel's rescue from the fiery serpents is unveiled as an allegorical representation of our eternal salvation through Jesus' death. Another striking example is Matthew 12:40, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth", which indicates an allegorical parallel between the ministries of Jonah and Jesus.

In effect, all of the Old Testament Scriptures comprise a living allegory. Jesus summed them up by saying, "These testify of Me" (John 5:39). But as we have already seen, the testimony of the Scriptures is not through direct, literal reference, but rather through dramatic or pictorial representation.

The Bible is nothing if not an allegory. But it is an allegory with a difference. It is a living allegory, acted out through real people and genuine events rather than invented characters and imagined plots. It is God's novel, written originally in flesh and blood and only later set down with paper and ink.

The Bible is indeed an extremely practical book. Nonetheless, the Bible must be understood as spiritual allegory first, before it can be applied practically. Take for instance the Song of Solomon. Historically, many commentators have viewed the Song as an allegory for Christ and the Church. However, many modern evangelical authorities are denying this interpretation, and treating the book instead as a practical manual for love in marriage. But when Jesus said, "These Scriptures testify of Me", He made no exceptions for the Song of Songs! ALL of the Old Testament scriptures, Song of Songs included, are primarily intended to bear witness of Him. Not to say it does not tell us something about sexual love! But before we can apply this book properly to human sexuality, we must understand how it applies spiritually to Christ and His bride. If we do not, we will inevitably misuse the Scriptures -- just as the Pharisees misused the Law, because they did not understand its fulfillment through Christ.

Prayer: Father, grant us grace that we might truly be workmen worthy of Your approbation, and that we might rightly divide Your Word of Truth(2 Timothy 2:15).

God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 1:09
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Stever...

Quote:
Stever's response:

The Catholics feel the same way, especially about the Book of Revelation, as well as Genesis. They say it is an "allegory".

"The Bible should not be read allegorically."

This statement, or the equivalent, may be commonly heard in evangelical, fundamental, or charismatic churches. Conservative Christians believe the Bible is factually, historically true: that it must be read and understood literally, and not spiritualized into an allegory. Though this sounds very pious and orthodox, there's one small flaw in this position -- it seems no one told the apostles, or Jesus! For all the writers of the New Testament, and Jesus Himself in the Gospel accounts, refer to the Old Testament PRIMARILY as spiritual allegory. (Of course, we may excuse their oversight, since they never went to seminary!)

I don't think that you actually understood what I wrote. I am not stating that the Bible is an allegory (and I have no idea how you could have even thought that). And you are incorrect in stating that the Roman Catholics "feel the same way" as I do about doctrine. They are probably more guilty than anyone of making "inarguable doctrines" out of remotely peculiar interpretations of Scripture.

But this is not confined to cultish practices from the Vatican or Salt Lake City. Well-meaning believers today are often just as guilty of preaching as fact what is simply a speculation. Yes, the Bible is clear. What is unclear is our understanding of some of the more misunderstood passages. Unfortunately, it is difficult to find two believers that agree on everything. It is usually the small interpretations that divide the Body of Christ.

I believe that we need to be careful about doing this. Should we isolate ourselves from those with whom we simply disagree? I am not speaking about what is completely clear from the Scriptures. But often, one groups of believers treat with contempt those that do not agree with their particular doctrinal beliefs. Entire denominations form over peculiarities of interpretation. I truly feel that some things should be left to the individual believer to make up his/her own conclusion on a matter -- rather than having it forced as a matter of affiliation.

It is a wonderful thing to discuss these matters. But perhaps we should refrain from considering something a fact that might not necessarily be one.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/6/6 2:14Profile









 Re:

Ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

“I believe that we need to be careful about doing this. Should we isolate ourselves from those with whom we simply disagree? I am not speaking about what is completely clear from the Scriptures. But often, one groups of believers treat with contempt those that do not agree with their particular doctrinal beliefs. Entire denominations form over peculiarities of interpretation. I truly feel that some things should be left to the individual believer to make up his/her own conclusion on a matter -- rather than having it forced as a matter of affiliation.”

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever’s reponse:


I have found that the Scripture is quite clear on the issues that I have posted. There is much prophecy in the Old Testament, that is fulfilled in the New. Specific fulfillment of Prophecy that when it is fulfilled in the New Testament refers to what is prophesized in the Old Testament. What is wonderful about Christianity is that each of us has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the God of the Universe. It is not a Religion, it is a relationship.

This specific thread is Scripture and Doctrine, and that is what we are discussing- Scripture and Doctrine as it relates to Abraham’s Bosom and those that were saved before the Cross.

There is nothing to be “careful about” if we stick to God’s Word the Bible and focus on that alone, and what it teaches us. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

If you think there are OTHER meanings to the prophecy that I have quoted in regards to the Messiah in the Old Testament, and fulfilled in the New Testament, then please post it.

Again, go through what I have posted, and point out my error.

We are all here to learn and to share Christ Jesus Crucified.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ccchhhrrriiisss posted:

"................ Unfortunately, it is difficult to find two believers that agree on everything. It is usually the small interpretations that divide the Body of Christ."
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

The Body of Christ will continue to be "divided" until He comes again to rule and reign with a rod of iron. It is the mantra of Catholocism and "eccumenicism" and the council of World Churches to all join together,and put aside our differences, and divisions, and combine into a one world Church Body.

Once this is a done deal, the church that is created will go forward into the Tribulation, led by the false prophet.




God bless,

Stever :-D

 2006/6/6 2:46





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy