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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

I am writing from Hershey Pa...We have not settled into any permanent residence or job...


Sister Diane quoted

Quote:
“Blessed are the poor in spirit….”What refreshing words of freedom - freedom from our pride, our fractured self-reliance, our worldly view of self-betterment.



I look to the Beatitudes as a fulfillment of the promise. The carnal man,mind cannot experience or manufacture what is promised. It is only when one finds his life, his walk in the Spirit, will one begin to realize what blessedness is for those who walk with Jesus.

A carnal driven man can only look to the beatitudes and say what a wretched man I am. A man who is led by the Spirit will fall down in praise in times when he himself finds moments in life where he recognizes the blessedness of what the carnal man sees as duty and obligation.

God Bless

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/7/18 17:23Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: beautiful

Quote:
Christ himself is the worst form of condemnation any of us could ever experience - apart from his new life birthed within us.



Quote:
A carnal driven man can only look to the beatitudes and say what a wretched man I am. A man who is led by the Spirit will fall down in praise in times...where he recognizes the blessedness of what the carnal man sees as duty and obligation.



These are such wonderfully cogent statements of spiritual blessing to me. How blessed it is to be able to partake in the reality of Christ, and not just the theory of Him. Taste and see that the Lord is good...amen.

Have you ever read the four Gospels, and did you not observe in the life of Christwonderful instances of humility, love to God, love to religion, wonderful instances of zeal for God's glory, steadfastness in resisting temptations, entire trust and reliance on God, strict adherence to all his commands; astonishing instances of condescension, humility, meekness, lowliness, love to men, love to his enemies, charity and patience? Why this is holiness. When we imitate Christ in these things, then we are holy and not till then."

Jonathan Edwards

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/7/18 18:02Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Yet, I also rejoice that my new relationship to the headship of Christ, being severed completely from the headship of Adam, has given me a new heart, one that is inclined towards God, and not hostile towards Him or His righteousness.



Our problem still remains. Though our heart may incline toward God and His rightousness, yet we remain powerless to do it.

This is still the great delimna in Romans 7-8:3 Here we find 4 laws.

1. The Law of God
2. The Law of good in our mind (the leading part of our heart).
3. The Law of sin and death in our flesh.
4. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

The Law of good in our mind wants and desires the rightousness of the law of God. But alas there is a defferent law, a stronger law than that in our minds. LIke an ungly big brother, when we would do what we would like, this big brother exerets his stronger power and takes us captive.

What then will set us free from this captivity? It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It is the resurrected Life of Christ who indwells our regenerated spirit.

The Christian does not live by his "new heart" with it's new desires. No, the Christian lives by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

This implies our organic union with Christ as branches grafted into the Rich Vine and partaking of the rich Sap of the Vine.

We go on, we bear fruit not be exercising our new heart. But rather by abiding in the Vine and deriving our LIfe from the Vine and enjoying the rich supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

IN salvation God regenerates our dead human spirit. And He put's His Spirit within our spirit. And from this INdwelling Spirit flow all the riches of Christ.

God has not made bad men good, He has made dead men alive. Alive not with a new natural Life but alive with His LIfe. We are begotton of God and are sons of God because we have the Life of God. And it is only as we enjoy the rich supply of this Divine Life, only as we are made partakers of the Divine Nature, do we experience the liberating freedom from the law of sin and death in our flesh.

It is only as we leart to touch and exercise our spirit to contact God, to drink of the Living Water of the Spirit in our spirit, to eat Christ as the Bread of Heaven and to be strengthend by His Spirit into our inner man to know Christ, to apprehend Christ, to experience Christ that He makes His home in our hearts through faith and fills us up unto all the fullness of God.

This is the only Christian Life and the Normal Christ Life. One not lived by our renewed nature but one lived by the Divine Nature of God inplanted within in HIs LIfe and lived by faith in the Son of God.

Gal. 2:20: "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives within me, and the Life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and Gave Himiself for me."

We do not live by a new nature created in us by God. We live by the Divine Natare implanted in us in the New Birth making us children of God with HIs indwelling LIfe. And only by living by this Life, by minding this Life, by walking in and according to this Life and by experiencing this LIfe do we overcome the law of sin and death in our flesh and find the just requirements of the law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Graftedbranch

 2006/7/20 12:15Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: real life

Quote:
I am writing from Hershey Pa


To think… we were just in Hershey on Wed! The Hershey Chocolate Factory was our first culture shock experience of our Pennsylvania trip. We are not accustomed to such high intensity, high energy, loud, fast level of stimulation. (We were expecting a tour, rather than an amusement park-type venue) We also visited Amish country (What a contrast!), attended the Christian theatres of Sight and Sound, and also merican Music Theatre (all fabulous). A tour of the Tabernacle replica by the Mennonites was most touching to me, as it was so serene. The only blemish was well-intentioned pastor/tourist who asserted authority over our guide with his “much knowledge”.” I was touched by the gentle manner of the Amish young lady who led the tour and took our purchases at the cash register. Indeed, there is a powerful testimony in a gentle unassertive character, who is "quietly" dressed. Edit: I learned by these people - how the way we present ourselves affect on-lookers in ways we may not realize.

I could add more comments about our USA trip experience – ex about the many Christian radio stations that we heard while driving……. (we don't have that in Canada)

This thread is a great place to return after all the excitment. There are nourishing words here – in my opinion, the kind of language was lacking on the radio stations (not to generalize)

The following words are sweet, reviving, and encouraging. They are words of life. Oh, that God’s people would speak them more – better yet, KNOW THEM MORE. This I believe is what PREACHING THE GOSPEL really is:


Quote:
Taste and see that the Lord is good



Quote:
It is only as we learn to touch and exercise our spirit to contact God, to drink of the Living Water of the Spirit in our spirit, to eat Christ as the Bread of Heaven and to be strengthend by His Spirit into our inner man to know Christ, to apprehend Christ, to experience Christ that He makes His home in our hearts through faith and fills us up unto all the fullness of God.

We live by the Divine Natare implanted in us in the New Birth making us children of God with HIs indwelling LIfe. And only by living by this Life, by minding this Life, by walking in and according to this Life and by experiencing this LIfe do we overcome the law of sin and death in our flesh and find the just requirements of the law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.



None of this glorious food from heaven can ever be replicated – even the best drama, the best music, lighting and sound effects etc, it’s all like Moses’ Tabernacle – a replica of the real – and yet, not the ultimate path to the real.

Quote:
It is only when one finds his life, his walk in the Spirit, will one begin to realize what blessedness is for those who walk with Jesus.

Quote:
When we imitate Christ in these things, then we are holy and not till then."


May SI be flooded with words of LIFE. May it be a holy place because holy people are here.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/22 7:59Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Grafted Branch...

Quote:
One not lived by our renewed nature but one lived by the Divine Nature of God implanted within in His Life and lived by faith in the Son of God.



So many times I think we are talking past one another, yet I can see that we are talking about many simiar things. With that better good in mind, allow me to press you a little on the dualism (I feel) is implied in your expression here.

Certainly we agree that if the Spirit were somehow pulled out of a Christian, the righteous life in that Christian would leave. Indeed this is the problem with much of our society...a Christless morality and a spiritless Church. So when the Paul talks about a new Creation he is talking not about a creation infused with it's own independent self-sustaining live and righteousness.

However, because of some of the excesses I have seen in my own dispensational circles, I want to maintain that the heart that lives by the Spirit is different then the heart that doesn’t not. American evangelicals have become a vast superstructure of dualism that celebrates unlived righteousness through their pristine justification theology. They are not orientated to seek righteousness, but instead master doctrine by which they can ‘teach’ Christ, or they crave the 'anointing' by which they intend to simply "channel" Christ in their preaching, prophecy, and healing.

What is at stake here for me is this constant uhealthy reaffirmation that unreal is quite normal in actual Christian lives. The Gospel does not say that Christians secretly dream about the same dark things the world dreams about and that the only difference is that the Christian spasmodically channels the life of Christ.

I am not interested in controversy...just sore of heart from hearing too often that Christians can never approach the sermon on the mount except through mystical speculation and that desiring to live according to the Beatitudes is only self-righteous ambition. Just this week a pastor told me that the Sermon on the Mount is nothing more then a foil to help us see how hopeless it is to be be like Christ. Doesn’t this dispensational extremism break His heart? It does mine! And it’s very confusing! I certainly agree that only Christ truly lived these things seamlessly, but can't we hope for a seamless abiding in Christ? If so, how can an evil unrenewed nature even hope to abide in Christ? (Note that I am not implying that you ever said such a thing brother!)

In these days of Christian dualism (Spirit good/flesh bad) we need to stress that Jesus’ life is not only 'spirit' but an actual three-dimensional life that does not glide through our human nature effortlessly like a ghost through matter. The Gospel is not so intangible and mystical that it never touches the actuality of human nature.

Whether we attribute our new 3-D life to the miracle of Christ living in us, or Christ giving us a new nature, the effect should be the same. We will want to conform to Christ inwardly as well as outwardly. This won't be a religious toil but a good thing to us.

And this disposition to love God and his ways is all I mean when I say "new nature."

My particular statements are not concerned with finding my own inherent self-sustaining righteousness, as if a spark from God turns our hearts into little righteous self-burning power plants that no longer needs Jesus every hour! But I do believe the Gospel offers a true desire for Christ that is deeper then my intellectual and willful efforts, but from the very matrix of the heart. Its origination is in an area that is beyond human manipulation and must be wrought about by God! The battle against sin and death within us may still rage, but the very real and eternal part of us has switched sides in that battle.

As always I am feeling foolish for all my forensic talk on these things. In light of the change experienced in many Christians, it is easy to see why many New Creations, amazed that they sincerely desire God, burden themselves with trying to understand the spiritual circuitry of that love...I am the most guilty of this. Instead of refining my beliefs with talk...I talk myself out of God's promises because I won't believe until I see the wiring diagram for myself! So... I'll just end with this quote from Oswald Chambers who expresses very well perhaps the only concern I really have here.

Beware of refining away the radical aspect of our Lord's teaching by saying that God puts something in us to counteract the wrong disposition---that is a compromise. Jesus never teaches us to curb or suppress the wrong disposition; He gives a totally new disposition, He altars the mainspring of action...someone cannot imitate the disposition of Christ it is either there or it is not. When the Son of God is formed in me, He is formed in my human nature, and I have to put on the new man in accordance with His life and obey Him.

However Christ lives in us, I am glad he does! Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/7/22 13:25Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: God's role vs our role

Quote:
In these days of Christian dualism (Spirit good/flesh bad) we need to stress that Jesus’ life is not only 'spirit' but an actual three-dimensional life that does not glide through our human nature effortlessly like a ghost through matter.



Oh, my! What do we have here? Christian dualism – Is this a close relative of Gnosticism? I wonder if this is another pendulum swing moving slightly away from the plumbline – an overzealous response to our sinful tendencies to depend on or glorify “self” and “self-effort”.

"No good thing dwells in me..." mmmmm What does that mean? Do we believe that we are rotten to the core, and excuse our fleshly responses, while imagining another person - ie a divine presence mysteriously at work too. Sounds like a great way to live in denial.

My mind is wandering here. I think of many of the words of our modern prayer-songs where we ask God to make us holy, make us kind, make us loving, give us unity, give us peace ….. And so passivity develops as we await this magical transformation to happen to us (ie - revival???).

Such a perception disables us from the ability to think and make our own choices. (fearing that could be the flesh at work) But get this: It can also absolve us of personal accountability in bringing about these godly qualities that we are praying for.

To be honest, now that I think about it, I went through a time of confusion in this area (maybe somewhat still there) – trying to understand the difference between living by law and living by the Spirit. Maybe it was a case of trying to find the right formulas to plug in to. Now I see it as a preoccupation with self - trying to get rid of it but ending up thinking about it.

It would be worth taking time to learn to distinguish God’s role and our role.

Quote:
In salvation God regenerates our dead human spirit. And He put's His Spirit within our spirit. And from this INdwelling Spirit flow all the riches of Christ.


3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

What has God given us?
His divine power = his Spirit... We participate... we must live the life....

What should we be praying for?
What should we be taking our own responsibility for?

just some things I'm wondering about.....

Diane


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Diane

 2006/7/22 22:37Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Look at the ant ...

Quote:
Do we believe that we are rotten to the core, and excuse our fleshly responses, while imagining another person - ie a divine presence mysteriously at work too. Sounds like a great way to live in denial.

Quote:
My mind is wandering here. I think of many of the words of our modern prayer-songs where we ask God to make us holy, make us kind, make us loving, give us unity, give us peace ….. And so passivity develops as we await this magical transformation to happen to us (ie - revival???).



Ooohh, you are hitting some nails here. Think a great deal of Oswald Chambers expressions are towards this stripping away of an ideal that things happen by passivity over getting our natural bents and proclivities [u]under[/u]... [i]His[/i] control, transformed [i]into[/i] the spirtual...

One difficulty and misunderstanding is that word "work" or "work's". There is far too much exhortation to get our spiritual\natural 'hand's' dirty in this business. Things to be cast down, things to be repudiated, forsaken and those that are too be enhanced and ....

[i]worked on[/i]

"Work out what God has worked in" as he often put it.

As far as revival is concerned ... So much that is entwined, from one standpoint would bounce off Richard Owen Roberts sentiment of "[i]Who wouldn't want revival[/i]"? Meaning in the sense of Heaven drawing closer to earth, God's Presence [i]known[/i] and 'felt' as it were. The very One we long for ... What greater joy, even in the midst of the very present fright and awe ... back to exposure again. The outworkings and straightening out of so much misrepresentation by a divine visitation another highly sought after prayer for revival from my perspective.

But as something to desire as a cure all for passivity, for not doing what we ought to be doing on our own .... Oh, I couldn't agree more!


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Mike Balog

 2006/7/23 12:34Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Look at the ant ...

Quote:
Work out what God has worked in" as he often put it.



I think he was quoting Paul in Phillipeans. "Work out your own salvation... for it is God who is at work within us to will and to work for His good pleasure"

I like what one said, "taste and see that the Lord is good".

What is lacking in most who have difficulty in comprehending the "dualism" which emerges is a little experience of Christ as our indwelling Life.

As are most truths which have two sides, the presentation of one side leaves some with a false conclusion. Just as to present clearly "justification by faith" as is clearly presented in Roman's 5 leaves many with the conclusion, "let us sin that grace may abound". But Paul does not back up and retract his unveiling of justification by faith, but rather goes on to present our organic union with Christ as both the motive and source of personal holiness and an overcomming life.

Wheras one group will react against the teaching of the Spirit and the indwelling Christ by giving themselves to self effort, other's will take this divine truth and reality and become passive waiting for God to move them. This also is a wrong position to take.

If one will take the time to pray through Galatians 2:20 instead of reading it with one's own concept in mind, you find that "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me". Yet, Paul also tells us how He lives by Christ. "The Life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".

Paul was not passive but exercised his spirit and exercised his whole being. But he did so in faith. Faith in the son of God. We first need the revealtion to know that Christ is within us and is ready and availibe to be everything to us. We need the Spirit's enlightment to see Christ and what He is to us. And when we see, we act according to what we know. We know He is within us and we know He is everything we need. And we reckon on Him to be in us all that He is. And as we go on day by day, the Spirit shines in us, exposes us and our Self effort, reveals Christ to us as the answer to our need, He gains something in us and we gain more of HIm in our experience. We learn to live by Christ.

The basic facts are that the only thing of genuine value in the Christian Life is Christ in us. And only what is the product of the Spirit's forming of Christ in us is acceptable to God.

John 15 and the organic relationship of the believers to Christ as illustrated by Christ in the Vine tree show us clearly that "apart from Me you can do nothing". And that fruitfulness in the Christian Life is by abiding in the Vine and He in us and therby deriving from the True Vine the rich Sap of the Spirit.

The whole of the New Testament is related to our union with Christ, His indwelling Life and our becomming by the Spirit's work within us sanctified, transformed, and conformed to His image. As Paul in 2 cor. says, "We all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit".

Only the Spirit can transform us into the image of Christ and that only as we behold Him through the Word (as the context of 2 Cor 3 reveals) as the Spirit unveils Him to us. And as we see Him, we are transformed into the same image by the Spirit who indwells us. Not all at one time. But little by little, day by day as we behold Him, as we are exposed, as we see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, we see some aspect of Him by the Spirit's light in the Word, we call on Him, we apprehend and we are transformed. He is worked into us and we become constituted with Him. And we live Him out and we know it. We are conscious that there is another Life at work within us and we know it is not of us but it is Christ in us.

What we need is revelation of the Spirit first as to His indwelling us. We need to spend time comming to the Lord, praying through and over His Word and asking the Lord to reveal these things to us and not take for granted that we know them.

We need to pray and ask the Lord to strengthen us by His Spirit into our inner man that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith... This is something the Spirit does in response to seeking and prayer. Our need here is not to understand a doctrine, but rather to be strengthened by the Spirit into our inner man. IT is not to get a hold of a concept, it is something the Spirit does strengthening us to apprehend these things. We can think about them all we want but apart from the Spirit's strengthening and unveiling, we cannot know them.

The proper balance between activity and dependance upon Christ as our Life is one which we have to learn by experience. It is something we all have to dive into and learn by making mistakes, by being corrected, by being taught by the Spirit.

Learing to live by Christ is not something we learn in a sermon and just do. We have to take the time daily to contact the Lord, to pray, to experience Christ, to call on Him and cry to Him to teach us to live this Life. We are no more capable of just taking up a teaching and going with it than the man in the moon.

We need to spend time in these things. We need to pray over these devine truths. We need to take the verses in the New Testament which deal with these things and pray about them, ask the Lord to lead us into them. To give us understanding, to work these things into our experience. Not in a passive way but by beseeching Him, by opening to Him and by exercising our spirit to call on Him and pray. And we need to give ourselves to studying these things.

I can testify I came to a place where I said, "Lord, either these things are true or they are not. And either they are true for me or they are not. If they are not, then I might as well just give up and live like the world. But if they are, I want to know them. Either I can know the Spirit's work in me, either You will bring me into the reality of these divine truths or you won't. Either Roman's 8 is for me or it is not.

When I took this position, I immediatly began to find a response in my spirit. The Word began to open to me. I had the Spirit's testimony in my spirit and the Lord began speaking to me through His word. And I began to experience something of the reality of these things in a genuine way. The bible came alive and as the Lord said in John 14, "in that day you will know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you".

Graftedbranch





 2006/7/26 23:35Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Sister Diane wrote:

Quote:
To think… we were just in Hershey on Wed! The Hershey Chocolate Factory was our first culture shock experience of our Pennsylvania trip. We are not accustomed to such high intensity, high energy, loud, fast level of stimulation. (We were expecting a tour, rather than an amusement park-type venue) We also visited Amish country (What a contrast!),



Hi Sis...

The first brother that I met at my new job here at the Hershey Medical Center is struggling with the concepts that are contained within this thread. According to his testimony, he was raised up in a strict German holiness type church. He spoke with sorrow for all the souls that struggle under leagalism. He was frustrated and lonely.

In two days of sharing we have been blessed by each other. Our hearts have quickened. I myself have been restored by the fellowship. All the work of the relocation became a wilderness experience in itself.

Song 8:

5 Who is this coming up from the wilderness,
Leaning upon her beloved?
I awakened you under the apple tree.
There your mother brought you forth;
There she who bore you brought you forth.
6 Set me as a seal upon your heart,
As a seal upon your arm;
For love is as strong as death,
Jealousy as cruel as the grave;
Its flames are flames of fire,
A most vehement flame.
7 Many waters cannot quench love,
Nor can the floods drown it.
If a man would give for love
All the wealth of his house,
It would be utterly despised.

May we always lean upon our beloved.

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/8/12 20:44Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: the sour apple

Quote:
The first brother that I met at my new job here at the Hershey Medical Center is struggling with the concepts that are contained within this thread


Praise God, Jeff, for bringing this man to you right from the start! Perhaps – a foreshadow of your calling to PA: to set the prisoners free.

Quote:
He spoke with sorrow for all the souls that struggle under leagalism. He was frustrated and lonely.



The “apple” from the tree seems so appealing at first: Why! We can manage our own lives and chart our own path to God! We can define what is good and evil! We can make our own laws and we will live by them!

For many this apple goes down tasting sweet. But it eventually turns sour. It destroys the soul, and pulls everybody else with it. I know of no more “pushy” evangelism than this kind of “gospel”. It tries to capture its victims and hold them in its constricting web for the rest of their lives. Yet it is the way of death.

“Those who have faith are blessed…. “ Gal. 3:9

“Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even thought you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Pet. 18

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/8/13 6:31Profile





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