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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: When is one free from the law?

Quote:
How can I tell if I am really free from the law?



I think we need first to see that our freedom from the law is not a state or condition but is our reality in Christ.

Romans 7 tells us a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives but when he dies, she is freed from the law regarding her husband. Then the Apostle applies it a little differently saying, "We have died to the law through the body of Christ that we might be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead".

Galatians tells us Christ was born of a woman, born under Law that He might redeem them that are under law.

On the Cross the Lord Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law and then died. IN His death He died to the juristicion of the law. It has juristiction over a man as long as he lives.

IN Resurrection the Lord Jesus lives to God.

And we by being babtised into Him (Romans 6) have been baptised into His death. We are partakers of His death and of His resurrection.

As those in HIm we have died in Him to the requiremtns of the law and the juristiction of the law. And as those who are united to Him in spirit, we partake of HIs resurrection Life and through Him live to God.

We are free from the Law in Christ. It has no claim on us. We are free from it.

Our relationship to God is now one of Life, not of law. We have no relationship to the Law. We are united in spirit with the crucified and resurrected Christ and we live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus which has set us free from the law of sin and death in our members and we are released from the outward Law of God as a set of demands upon us through Christ's redemption and death.

Christ is the end of the law for rightousness to everyone who believes.

We experience freedom from the law when we have the revelation of the Spirit regarding our freedom from the law in Christ. When we see that we are indeed through with the law in Christ and begin to live by the indwelling Spirit of Christ, then we are liberated in our experience from both bondage to the law and to sin.

Our need is the Spirit's revelation of the divine facts in Christ. We need to see what Christ has accomplished and that we are one with Him and that He is in us and we are in Him and in Him we are free from law and alive to God. When we see this we begin to live in the reality of it and the Spirit liberates us from bondage experientially.

Those who experientially are in bondage to the law are taken up with the law. This is their Christian life. What is right, what is wrong, etc. Those who are free from the law in their experience are taken up with Christ, to know HIm, to experience Him, to live by Him, to love Him and to please Him.

Galatians 2:19,20 Through law I died to law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but it is Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh, I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".

"We are the true circomcision who worship God in spirit, glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh".




Graftedbranch

 2006/5/29 11:40Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: a journey?

Quote:
I still struggle with this kind of mentality even though I have been redeemed. It creeps up on me


J-Bird, I know your words aren't funny at all, but I couldn’t help chuckling when I read this line, because it reminded me of my own self-made illustration earlier in this thread, where I read “Beware! Legalism Ahead” into someone’s words. (I hope he comes back)

Someone once said, “When you still feel it, it’s not dead.” I might add: we're still not totally immunized against the poison, and so the sting of law is still felt. Indeed, our struggles keep us close to the ground – at the feet of Jesus. Maybe we’re not totally free till heaven. Like for Abraham, it is a journey.
Quote:
This is problably why so many of these churches die. They ruin the next generation.

I think you hit the bull's eye, or should I say, the serpent's fangs.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/29 11:52Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Peculiar creatures

Mike,

It is wonderful when someone can come along and elucidate that which is finding difficulty in articulation. (Fancy words!)

Quote:
I believe this is the source of our present heart sickness of legalism. It is not being uptight about going to movies and dancing. That kind of legalism is nothing…we step right over that with out breaking a sweat. No, our real legalism is our confidence in [u]Christian principles without the Spirit.[/u] We love formulas.



Indeed and the formulas are wrecked every time you turn around. It is a puzzlement to me that there is a failure to recognize that... Oh it is so plain and simple as to be easily disregarded;

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, [u]but canst not tell[/u] whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

But we think we can, because we have biblical principles and polished formulas... and [i]promises[/i]! :-)

Yet the Lord continues to defy all these things by throwing a wrench in our plans and arranging circumstances that are contradicting us at every turn. And how happy I am for it! What place would there be for a need of faith if everything was figured out before hand, mapped out [i]according[/i] to principle alone ... Why trust God when we can depend on ourselves and a crafty stitching together of scripture underpinnings to suit our self serving ends?

Oh I must say I am not anywhere near angry. Just as exacting as [i] the wind blow where it listeth[/i] so the Lord has seen fit to visit this poor soul for the last couple of days in a new and different way... very, very difficult to express. It is somewhat like unto:

Phi 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Am still a bit too suspicious of my own possible proclivities to think this is something of an attainment, would adjust it perhaps to [i]am learning[/i].

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Peaceable. There was something other that come brewing up from within and it went past me and I lost it, a different verse, a better word hidden in the heart. I am unsure where I am attempting to go with this, thoughts are branching off in many directions.

The thing that is always blessedly startling in absorbing the scriptures is how the Lord doesn't work to prescribed formulas... how unorthodox is His orthodoxy! And how true it is in practice in the saints. Anything from the rather bizarre way of deconstruction at the walls of Jericho (Heb 11:30 [u]By faith[/u] the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.) to John the Baptist's 'long' career as an open air preacher or Stephen's grand evangelistic campaign, Joshua's being sold into slavery and later being brought to position, Abraham and Issac or even a favorite [i]think again[/i]; Hosea and Gomer.

So much for formulas.

A digression from the main here but a word that is seemingly out of place when it comes to our God is 'always'...

[i]Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.[/i] Jam 4:13-16

Presumption.

But to get back to walking in the spirit...

Quote:
In all cases of true conversion, it is Christ, his very sufficient person, [u]that becomes revealed to the heart[/u], able to wound and heal and embrace. Yet, we trust our work more then we trust His work. And we fall back on the principles of salvation rather then the Person of Salvation.


There you have it, right there. It is where I tremble to think of telling anyone that they [i]are saved[/i], 'pray this prayer' [i]and[/i]..., follow this precept ... No! We cannot induce birth, manipulate or cajole people, we may lead and preach and plead and live and be what we are, plant seed or water and God help us if we are not praying, the highest faculty given us though it seems to be the least appreciated since it doesn't have all the outward show... But birth from above? How did each of us ever get to the point we are at now? Somewhere, somehow there was a moment of inception that can only be known to the individual and the Lord Himself and if we have that, we have everything and are truly in [i]need of nothing[/i].

The answer to the 'OSAS' and I find it rather a ridiculous question, a wrong question, is easily addressed by one profound statement, expressed twice;

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

This cannot be taught nor bought nor faked nor learned. It is either there or it is not. And that there is a multitude that have been convinced otherwise ... It is just beyond me.

Quote:
But I am learning that knowing Jesus is everything, and all other preludes and positional claims are trickery. You will know when you have met Jesus my friend…don’t let anyone con you out of meeting Him in person with their pristine Calvinist or Arminian doctrine. Whether you have the cheap grace of scholastized Calvinism, or the cheap altars of Romanized Arminism…many church goers are still laboring under the law…looking for their beloved.

In fact, I am growing increasingly convinced that Spiritless Christianity, as Tozer named it, is the simple explanation for why many in the church are bound up in principles of Christianity…because they do not know the Person of Christ.



Quote:
All of our correct doctrine and deeper spiritual secrets are foolishness when we do not preach the New Birth.



Quote:
And millions of Almost Christians wander just outside the inner courts of union and fellowship with Christ. They laboring sincerely in darkness under this myth that their defeat and fear is quite normal and that sleep will soothe their sore conscience. My own personal testimony of escaping this trap would not only offend my grace friends, [u]because I insist on possesing an assuring inward witness they claim is non-essential to salvation[/u], but also my holiness friends, because I insist that the New Birth is that very passing from crisis into sanctification they claim as subsequent to salvation.



Amazing ...[i]non-essential[/i]?
Your insistance is the Lord's insistance. If there is any biblical principle that is forever fixed it is this one.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he [u]cannot[/u] see the kingdom of God.

How has this become something of almost an 'optional' idea? It is generally said and stated or at least somehow alluded to throughout all the various abominations (Ravenhill) but it is handled with such little care as to be quickly moving on to ...

Biblical principles?

There is a brother here awhile back that was so endearingly forthcoming as to recognize that he in fact did not have a new birth but did have all the outward, even proper understanding of a great deal of biblical ... principles. And, if I recall correctly for a number of years. It was one of the most striking and honest admissions I have ever heard, very similar to what Charles Wesley went through. I believe he is now an open air preacher, full of the Holy Spirit ... and truth.

Thought this was going to be more about walking in the Spirit, sorry Diane, maybe you can steer us back on track here. :-)


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Mike Balog

 2006/5/29 11:55Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Abraham recieved the promise that enabled him to please God. The law of faith liberated him. His life is given to us as an example of the power of God's promise worked out in the life of a fallen man.



We need to see that the Promise of Abrahman was that in his Seed, all the nations would be blessed. And Galatians tells us that his Seed is Christ and it is in Christ that all the nations are blessed.

It is in Christ that we are delivered from the bondage of the law. And the Promised blessing to Abraham is the Promise of the Spirit

Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles out of faith preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham: "in you shall and the nations be blessed"

14 "In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might recieve the promise of the Spirit through faith."

The blessing of Abraham is the Promise of the Spirit though faith givnen to us "in Christ Jesus".

This was not realized by Abraham but as Galatians 3:8 says, The scripture forseeing that God would... and the fullfilment of this is "in Christ Jesus" who is the promised Seed.

Gal 3:16 "And to Abraham were the promises spoken and to his seed. He does not say, And to seeds, as concerning many, but as concerning one: "And to your seed who is Christ".

So the promise to Abraham is the Seed which is Christ and the blessing of Abraham is the Spirit poure out "upon all flesh".

And Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as rightousness. Abraham believed the gospel concering the comming Seed and though faith in this comming seed Abraham was justified.

Abraham was justified though faith in this comming Seed. And we are justified through faith in this Seed who has come.

The whole point of the book of Galatians is that Abraham was justified by faith in the comming Seed who is Christ before the law of Moses was even given. And the law did not come in for 450 years because of the transgression of Isreal.

And we today are also justified by faith in this Seed who is Christ apart from the law just like Abraham.

But whereas Abraham had only the promise of the Seed, we have the reality of this Promise. We do not believe in the promise of Christ, we believe in the Christ who has come in fulfillment of the promise, has been crucified and redeemed us from the law, and who in resurrection lives in us as the Spirit poured out.

Graftedbranch



 2006/5/29 12:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
I still struggle with this kind of mentality even though I have been redeemed. It creeps up on me


J-Bird, I know your words aren't funny at all, but I couldn’t help chuckling when I read this line, because it reminded me of my own self-made illustration earlier in this thread, where I read “Beware! Legalism Ahead” into someone’s words. (I hope he comes back)

Someone once said, “When you still feel it, it’s not dead.” Indeed, our struggles keep us close to the ground – at the feet of Jesus. Maybe we’re not totally free till heaven. Like for Abraham, it is a journey.
Quote:
This is problably why so many of these churches die. They ruin the next generation.

I think you hit the bull's eye, or should I say, the serpent's fangs.
Diane

What does'nt kill you makes you stronger. ;-)

 2006/5/29 12:03
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: fully freed, but still not flying

Grafted branch said:

Quote:

I think we need first to see that our freedom from the law is not a state or condition but is our reality in Christ.

Galatians 2:19,20 Through law I died to law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but it is Christ who lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh, I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".


I need to clarify. I wrote:
Quote:
Maybe we’re not totally free till heaven.

I return to the picture I used earlier of the butterfly totally freed from its coccoon. It is no longer in bondage to the confines of the law (of the nature of the coccoon). However, it still clings to some remnants of it's former life-stage and so doesn't fly freelly right away. However, it gets stronger bit by bit in the course of time.

I trust that is correct. Thanks, GB
Diane


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Diane

 2006/5/29 12:29Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Spiritual truth

Quote:
Would it be safe to say that many of the people who are trapped by legalism, in some sick, twisted way, actually begin to like this type of lifestyle?

Quote:
It's easier if you have someone thinking for you. Right? I think it becomes addictive and there is a need for this type brow beating once you become dependant on it.



I think you are quite right here.
Quote:
Their so miserable, but in their minds they really think their right. I understand we should have convictions about things, but we should never lash out at those that don't have the same convictions. It becomes about control, instead of the Saviour. It feeds on the weak and preys on the unstable.



Brother my heart goes out to you, it is the religion of the Pharisee at bottom, the very thing the Lord struck at with His penetration into the heart ... for those who would hear it.

I believe there is a higher law that overcomes all this though as you alluded to and that can be brought forth through you. It is the 'law' of love that Jesus had and imparts to us by the Holy Spirit. That can take all these things and put them under ... Usually prefer to think these things through a bit more and hope it is helpful to put it this way. Had alluded to the sentiment earlier of [i]And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.[/i]That can be misconstrued and probably should have added an addendum there. It is more subtle than overt, nowhere near hostility or that which say those in India who have turned to the living God from idols are experiencing. Not to sound too mystical about it but it is in the atmosphere. Adding to this;

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

It is all the difference in the world to attempt to talk oneself into this and to actuality have it breaking forth from within. It is a stretch because these are not truly 'enemies' in that sense of the definition but there has been times in the past where my attitude was of such. Maybe what I am hard pressed to extrapolate is both a patience and that which has been of late a great love despite everything, whatever it is, circumstantial, finacial... (Hmmm, coming full circle back to all these 'principles' and outlines from Larry Crabb again). Maybe the simplest and profoundest is that it is the love of God.

It may just be me and certainly we are all at different aspects and places in this journey, but the things we absorb in spiritual truth may come back out from a variety of places. I do not know for certain that it is [i]because[/i] of, or just one of those divine circumstances, regardless, have found this recent gem to be of a great deal of help, one that I wish to re-read over and over again.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10789&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]G.D. Watson ~ Soul Food[/url]


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Mike Balog

 2006/5/29 12:31Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I still struggle with this kind of mentality even though I have been redeemed. It creeps up on me



I think we all struggle with this. And when it "creeps up on us" we need to turn to the Lord and declare we are free from law and thank Him that He has redeemed us from the curse of the law and that in Him we have died to it.

In this way we exercise the "faith of Abraham" and enjoy the liberating Spirit through faith.

Our natural fallen human nature is very religious. And our natural life loves the law because by it we can justify ourselves (we think). WE want to know what good thing we can do to solve our problems or to obtain God's blessing (outward).

Our natural religious nature asks, "what must we do to work the works of God" And the Lord replies, "this is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent.

I like H.C.G. Moule's "daily affirmation of faith"

"I believe on the Son of God, therefore I am in Him having redemption through His Blood and Life by His Spirit. And He is in me for all my hourly need.

There is no difficulty inward or outward which He is not ready to meet in me today. the Lord is my Shephard. Amen."

Graftedbranch

 2006/5/29 13:02Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

There is a difference in the "law of the Spirit" and the "law of faith." What is it?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/5/29 13:54Profile









 Re: When is one free from the law?

Quote:
There is a difference in the "law of the Spirit" and the "law of faith." What is it?

Jeff, I love your questions. They are always a combination of brain-teaser and spiritual dipstick - and I've no idea if what I'm going to say comes anywhere near what you're looking for. But here goes...

The law of faith is that by which righteousness is imputed to us by believing in Christ for forgiveness of sin(s); the law of the Spirit is that by which we live day by day, (after new birth), making us free from the law of sin (and death).

One doesn't stop using the law of faith, as it is the foundation of all our believing - including [i]into[/i] the promise of the continuing supply of the Spirit - His Spirit.

Marks out of 10 please? ;-)

 2006/5/29 14:25





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